Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Make ready....


fuentesd99

Recommended Posts

Last year when I was told to make ready I would cock my hammer while gun is still in the holster then I would do a draw on a target then load. I have done that for MANY local and Major matches and never had a problem until this person RO'd me and said that is illegal and i could be DQ'd for that. I asked him how and he gave me some rule that I can't remember. This year I saw someone do what I did and I asked a GM that was on my squad and he said that is legal. What are your thoughts and rulings?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The make ready process can follow any number of paths depending on the shooter. I don't have my rule book in front of me but I can't think of a specific rule violation.

That being said, I see most people draw the gun, cock it , place the safety on then re-holster and do a practice draw as that is the condition the gun would be in when loaded.

Well I did a little reading and found a part of the supplemental rules that says the thumb safety must be applied when the gun is holstered. Since the hammer would have to be cocked to apply the safety I guess someone might try to apply this to an unloaded gun, but to me it is obviously referring to a loaded gun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

This might apply. If you've been given the make ready, though, you are at the suitable range to make the appropriate corrective action. In fact, putting on the safety and/or drawing the gun are suitable as corrective actions. Your make ready is probably poor form with an RO literally interpreting this rule. Dealing with the RO hassling you is your problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked.

All these conditions apply the entire time the handgun is in the holster. See 8.1.2.4


It says "a loaded handgun" so unless you were walking around with bullets in the gun before make ready, which would be a DQ, I think the RO was mistaken


I tend to draw my gun, rack the slide, put the safety on, holster it, and do a practice draw but.,.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The rules quoted are all applicable. It is not a DQ as described. BUT in the RO's defense how does he KNOW your gun is unloaded when you walk up to the line? Strange things happen when guns are involved sometimes. What if somebody had been practicing the day before and not cleared the gun? BOOM and DQ! I always clear my gun at make ready and never pull the trigger unless I do . RO incorrect in his opinion but he may have prevented a DQ. Who knows? I would change your routine regardless of this incident

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The RO in this case is misinterpreting the rules cited here to attempt to explain the behavior. Because you're under the direct supervision and control of an RO, you're allowed to have a handgun that does not meet the full "unloaded" criteria (hammer down, chamber empty, magazine well empty), because you're "handling" the gun. As long as you do it safely, the RO has no grounds for a DQ.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to wonder why the RO in the OP did not call a DQ? My uneducated guess is that he may of been unsure. If that was the case, then the RO should of STFU and watched the show. Let the shooter play their game their way. The fact that the RO may not like the behavior is irrelevant. If there is no rule against it, then it is a disservice to the shooter to distract them from their preparation. If a person feels strongly that something is unsafe or unfair, then lobby to change / add a rule. But do it on your own time, not the shooter's time.

Happy Cinco,

Chuck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Chuck. This isn't IDPA where the officials can give a competitor a blanket "I didn't like that, so you get a 'Failure to Do Right' penalty." There's no rule against it, so the RO should keep those opinions to him/herself.

Like that whole nutroll about the flip and catch on UL&SC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, the RO said "make ready." At that point, you're allowed to do pretty much anything, up to and including dry firing, practice draws, and even taking sight pictures with a loaded gun! If he didn't want you messing with the hammer on the gun, he shouldn't have told you to "make ready."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nah. By 5.2.2 the RO had a right to talk to the competitor to get him to fix the problem, but not to threaten the DQ. In most cases there isn't time between cocking the gun and applying the safety, so they should be able to get away with not being bothered.

Had the competitor inserted a loaded magazine into the gun prior to cocking the hammer and going through the rest of his routine, technically, he momentarily had a loaded gun, cocked, in the holster with the safety off. I'm thinking that's a DQ. You have to use the glossary definition of "loaded firearm" to get there, but still...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please state the rule number in the book that says at the make ready command you cannot cock the hammer on an unloaded gun in your holster and or apply the safety. It all refers to a loaded gun in the holster. Rule 5.2.2 is for when you are not on the course of fire. At our club a few years back when one of the national GM competitors was shooting with us, we had a major discussion amonst us and the rule book on this action. He does it all the time and states quite clearly show me in the rule book where it is illegal.

Do I believe you should do this no, but it I yet have a rule sited which states it is not legal.

Cheers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to thank everyone for replying to my question. And I do agree and or understand a lot of your opinions.

Sarge:

But, what is the difference between (gun in holster) cocking your hammer put safety on then do your routine as to drawing gun out of the holster then cocking the hammer then put safety on and then holster then do your routine? And you never racked the slide.

I know my gun is ALWAYS empty before I place it in my holster before the start of any match because I TRIPLE check everything while I am at the safe area, plus I also do a little dry fire while I am there.

I will not mention any names, but this RO that said that to me is running for an Area # Director.

So.....hearing everyone's thoughts and opinions, I think this would be a good question to ask USPSA and hopefully have it posted in Front Sight Magazine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate it when RO's try to "Make Up" rules for things they don't understand or simply don't like. The few times that I have experienced this myself as a shooter, I simply tell the RO to go get their Rule book and show me the rule they are trying to enforce. If they balk at that I simply tell them to know and enforce valid rules or leave the RO task to others that will.

Unfortunately most of the time the competitors themselves don't know the rules well enough to push back in these scenarios when needed. By the time the weekend is over and you post up the "event" on the forum, the learning opportunity for the delinquent RO is pretty much over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sarge, that wouldn't have prevented a DQ, because if the gun was loaded when the competitor came to the line it would have been a DQ anyway, whether a round was discharged or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nah. By 5.2.2 the RO had a right to talk to the competitor to get him to fix the problem, but not to threaten the DQ. In most cases there isn't time between cocking the gun and applying the safety, so they should be able to get away with not being bothered.

Had the competitor inserted a loaded magazine into the gun prior to cocking the hammer and going through the rest of his routine, technically, he momentarily had a loaded gun, cocked, in the holster with the safety off. I'm thinking that's a DQ. You have to use the glossary definition of "loaded firearm" to get there, but still...

After the RO gives the "make ready" command, all bets are off. An unloaded gun with a cocked hammer in the holster, a gun with a magazine in it, or a fully loaded gun is 100% legal. That's the entire point of "make ready." You can't START with a loaded gun without the safety on, but there is nothing that says you can't have the hammer back on an unloaded gun in the holster during "make ready." "Make ready" doesn't end until the competitor assumes the start position. Have you SEEN how long some pros take to make ready?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps, but it would have prevented an AD/ND, which is really more to the point, safety-wise.

Correct. That was my only point. I just happened to watch a VERY experienced local shooter walk up to a safety table and pull his gun out of his bag aim and pull the trigger. BANG!

I can rack and dry fire a gun twenty times and still won't draw it and pull the trigger unless I rack it first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to thank everyone for replying to my question. And I do agree and or understand a lot of your opinions.

I know my gun is ALWAYS empty before I place it in my holster before the start of any match because I TRIPLE check everything while I am at the safe area, plus I also do a little dry fire while I am there.

I follow the same routine, in the name of safety.

But there is a reason its called a accidental / negligent discharge.

It happens by mistake when all the planets are aligned and Mr Murphy has a way of showing up.

Do what you want to make ready, but I never pull the trigger without first racking the slide or desiring the gun to go Bang

Legal, YES

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nah. By 5.2.2 the RO had a right to talk to the competitor to get him to fix the problem, but not to threaten the DQ. In most cases there isn't time between cocking the gun and applying the safety, so they should be able to get away with not being bothered.

Had the competitor inserted a loaded magazine into the gun prior to cocking the hammer and going through the rest of his routine, technically, he momentarily had a loaded gun, cocked, in the holster with the safety off. I'm thinking that's a DQ. You have to use the glossary definition of "loaded firearm" to get there, but still...

Please explain exactly what "the problem" is the competitor would need to "fix." Nothing the competitor has done is illegal or even unsafe.

There's no reason to extend the argument by saying "had the competitor blah, blah, blah," because it didn't happen. Deal with that when it happens, but it's a strawman for the purposes of this post.

Perhaps, but it would have prevented an AD/ND, which is really more to the point, safety-wise.

Perhaps, but it would have prevented an AD/ND, which is really more to the point, safety-wise.

Correct. That was my only point. I just happened to watch a VERY experienced local shooter walk up to a safety table and pull his gun out of his bag aim and pull the trigger. BANG!

I can rack and dry fire a gun twenty times and still won't draw it and pull the trigger unless I rack it first.

I still fail to see the big issue here.

If the guy walks up and racks the slide and a round falls out, it's a DQ for having a loaded gun when he's not supposed to.

If the guy walks up, thumbs back the hammer, then takes what he thinks is a dead chamber sight picture--meaning he's pointing the gun in a safe direction, because anything else would get him DQ'd--and pulls the trigger and gets a bang, he gets a DQ for having a loaded gun when he's not supposed to (or a couple of other items, but you can only DQ a guy once).

Is it optimal? No. Is it, strictly speaking, safe gun handling? No. Is it inherently unsafe? Probably not. It's unpleasantly surprising, but they guy handled the gun in an otherwise safe manner, except for verifying the gun was unloaded every time he picked it up. It really means he violated a safety rule somewhere else first and forgot about it.

I think this is not as big of an issue as it's made to be here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Legal, perhaps. Smart, not so sure. I'm with the crowd who can't figure out why you'd want to pull the trigger without knowing what's in the chamber.

I also can't figure the advantage to cocking a 1911-style gun without also putting the safety on, since by not doing that you've changed the draw sequence. (That comes under the heading of "don't do anything that you're not going to do in the match".)

Yeah, yeah, you can probably do it, but why?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

<snip>

I still fail to see the big issue here.

If the guy walks up and racks the slide and a round falls out, it's a DQ for having a loaded gun when he's not supposed to.

If the guy walks up, thumbs back the hammer, then takes what he thinks is a dead chamber sight picture--meaning he's pointing the gun in a safe direction, because anything else would get him DQ'd--and pulls the trigger and gets a bang, he gets a DQ for having a loaded gun when he's not supposed to (or a couple of other items, but you can only DQ a guy once).

Is it optimal? No. Is it, strictly speaking, safe gun handling? No. Is it inherently unsafe? Probably not. It's unpleasantly surprising, but they guy handled the gun in an otherwise safe manner, except for verifying the gun was unloaded every time he picked it up. It really means he violated a safety rule somewhere else first and forgot about it.

I think this is not as big of an issue as it's made to be here.

You're kidding, naturally. Of course it's unsafe. That's why it's an AD and a DQ, because it's unsafe. (Not because "someone didn't get hurt - this time" but because it's an unsafe action.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After the RO gives the "make ready" command, all bets are off. An unloaded gun with a cocked hammer in the holster, a gun with a magazine in it, or a fully loaded gun is 100% legal...

Well, if you put a loaded magazine in the firearm, it is loaded (Loaded firearm - A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, OR having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.) If the firearm is loaded, then you can't have it in your holster without the safety being applied (8.5.2.1 - For a single action self-loader the safety must be applied.) In this situation, I can see that this would be a DQ according to 10.5.11. In the case of the OP, I would say that is not a DQ'able offense and I hope the OP informs the RO about it so they can learn from it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After the RO gives the "make ready" command, all bets are off. An unloaded gun with a cocked hammer in the holster, a gun with a magazine in it, or a fully loaded gun is 100% legal...

Well, if you put a loaded magazine in the firearm, it is loaded (Loaded firearm - A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, OR having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.) If the firearm is loaded, then you can't have it in your holster without the safety being applied (8.5.2.1 - For a single action self-loader the safety must be applied.) In this situation, I can see that this would be a DQ according to 10.5.11. In the case of the OP, I would say that is not a DQ'able offense and I hope the OP informs the RO about it so they can learn from it.

"Make Ready" is not over until the competitor assumes the start position. If I put a mag in my gun, then holster it, (no round in the chamber, no hammer cocked), you're telling me that it's a DQ? You're crazy! You're going to DQ someone for a mag in a gun, even if the gun is not chambered and cocked, and they are under the supervision of the RO the entire time? There are rules and then there is idiocy. I'm fairly sure that is NOT how the rule is meant to be interpreted. The definition of "loaded" is written that way to prevent people from having guns with a magazine in them, (even with dummy rounds), when NOT attempting a COF. That covers walking around and in safety areas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...