dghboy315 Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 i'm thinking of getting a back up gun for my productions beretta 92G elite II. what are you allowed to use if you primary competition gun goes down? does it have to be the exact same model? i'm looking at a used beretta 92G centurian as a back up gun. would this be legal? it is the same company, calibur and action. it is just a slightly different model. the centurian has a slighly lighter and shorter slide, less than 1/2 inch difference. the dust cover is also a little shorter, but otherwise the frame is exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaRacer Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Back up gun for a Beretta?? Why, they don't break Just think energiser bunny...they just keep going and going and going..... Now if you had anything ending in **11 then you'd need a back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 It's really up to the Range Master at the match as to what is an acceptable replacement and what would be a competitive advantage (unacceptable). There's a thread on the subject elsewhere with bad feelings involved. It would be nice if USPSA/IPSC clarified what constitutes a competitive advantage. As someone who got a $2000+ backup gun for his $2000+ primary gun, I recommend getting the exact same model. Exact same sights, and try to get the trigger pull the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 This question revolves around a Production Division gun. I have a hard time understanding what a "competitive advantage" in this division could be. My 2 cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I'm comfortable with 5.1.7, with the exception of 5.1.7.2. It is unnecessary. One cannot be gaining a competitive advantage if the substitute gun meets all the division requirements. It is as silly as saying that all guns used in a division must be identical so that no one gains a competitive advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squishy Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 May not be allowed because it is lighter and shorter than your primary gun. Depends on the match director. My 2cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Actually the Match Director has no authority in this matter. The rule book gives the authority to the Range Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandankenpo Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I believe it has to be same cal. barrel lenght,same division, I don't think it has to be the same make Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Actually the rule book says: 5.1.7.1 "The handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant division." 5.1.7.2 "In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a cmpetitive advantage." 5.1.7.3 "The competitor's ammunition, when tested in the substitute handgun attains the minimum power factor using the match chronograph." There are no other requirements. The only potential fly in the ointment is the subjective decision that the RM makes on 5.1.7.2. My view on this has been to be rather "liberal" (forgive me for using that word) when I have had to make that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Baier Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Shooting production I use a Elite II and for my backup I have an 92FS. Went to a match last year 3 hours from home and brought backups for both of my shooting buddys. which was a good thing because both of their primary guns had melt downs. But Gary is right it is up to the range master to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I agree with Gary's approach. When I RM a match, and a competitor comes to me with a gun change request for a broken gun, as long as those three rules are satisfied, I'm OK with it. I do like to ask what happened to the original gun, just so I'm on the same page as the competitor (that is, the gun is actually broken and there's no confusion over the reason for the change). After all, if the backup gun is going to give you a competitive advantage, you'd be shooting that one as your primary gun, right? Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 If you're shooting the 3-gun nationals, apparently substituting a rubber band gun for your Open gun constitutes an unfair competitive advantage. It almost makes you never want to get on the plane.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I like that last sentence Troy. I think I may have to appropriate that one, but I will give you credit for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 After all, if the backup gun is going to give you a competitive advantage, you'd be shooting that one as your primary gun, right? Troy Well...here is the "idea" that I always heard. And, You gotta wonder why the rule is even there. I think/understand that it is because you don't want competitors to be switching guns from stage to stage. An example might be a long-range standards type cof, where there is little muzzle swing. A heavy and stable gun would be an advantage...on that stage. Kick it over a stage or two...and you have a stage full of gun movement and transitions...a shooter might want to bag the anvil and pick up el-blaster-o-lite. I gotta think that that must have been happening at some point in the past...and that is where this rule came from? I am with Troy and Gary on being pretty laid back on a replacement for a broken gun. However, if Jonnie Shooter wanted to switch guns to fit the stage...I'd be more inclined to piss on his range gear than allow him to swap guns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I should point out that other RM's opinions differ. I shared a story with my Level 1 RO Instructor (who I gave a ride form the airport to the range). I told him about a steel match where my girlfriend was shooting her Para (P16-40). The Para launched parts downrange when the bushing broke. She finished the match by shooting my Glock 35. The Instructor informed me that she would not have been allowed to do so if it had been an USPSA match. (the instructor was also a past Range Master for the Nationals) Maybe we need some clarification on this...written into the next set of rules...so that it isn't up to the RM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I should point out that other RM's opinions differ.I shared a story with my Level 1 RO Instructor (who I gave a ride form the airport to the range). I told him about a steel match where my girlfriend was shooting her Para (P16-40). The Para launched parts downrange when the bushing broke. She finished the match by shooting my Glock 35. The Instructor informed me that she would not have been allowed to do so if it had been an USPSA match. (the instructor was also a past Range Master for the Nationals) Maybe we need some clarification on this...written into the next set of rules...so that it isn't up to the RM? Flex, remember the instructor's reasoning for not allowing the switch? I'd love to hear it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Me, too. I think that the rule is in place (about switching guns without permission) to prevent using a gun that more suited to one stage than another, as Flex stated. But, if your gun is broken, and you need to switch, then if it fits the three requirements, I'll let you switch. However, if you come to me later, and say that the original is fixed, and want to switch back, I'm going to have some reservations. Just my suspicious nature, I guess. As for er, wetting down your range bag, uh, Kyle, we need to talk.... About the 3 Gun, I've heard a lot of stories about that match. I wasn't there, so I won't comment, but I hope this year goes a lot smoother. I was really sorry to hear about all the hassles, though. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I should point out that other RM's opinions differ.Maybe we need some clarification on this...written into the next set of rules...so that it isn't up to the RM? Well, who would it be? Someone's got to make the decision, and per the rules, the RM is the guy in charge of rules issues on the range. If not the RM, then who? Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caps Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 ...I'd be more inclined to piss on his range gear than allow him to swap guns out. Very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 As for er, wetting down your range bag, uh, Kyle, we need to talk.... That would be easy to do too...while wearing a kilt. Flex,remember the instructor's reasoning for not allowing the switch? I'd love to hear it..... That was under the old red book US 5.2.6.1 where it said, "...same type action and caliber." His reason was...a Para wasn't the same type as a Glock. I think (if I am reading right) that language has been removed from the new green rule book? If so, would should be good now? (sorry Troy, I didn't read up on the new rule...don't tell my CRO Instructor, I need to pass my class yet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 I'd say that the new rule, specifically 5.1.7.1, gives considerable leeway for substitute handguns. 5.1.7.2 might be the sticking point, because "competitive advantage" is pretty subjective. However, if the substitute gun is similar to the original, I personally would not have a problem with allowing the substitution--as long as the division requirements are met. IMO, this rule should not be taken to extremes by an RM trying to divine intent from a swap request. If a guy has had his gun choke and puke on him, he's just looking to keep playing, and has probably lost considerable ground. Just my 2 cents. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Those who may feel that 5.1.7.2 is a necessary component of 5.7.1 to keep competitors from engaging in the nefarious behavior of switching guns to suit a stage design, we have that rule in place already. It is 10.6.1. If the ROs and RM are working together, as they should be, the rats engaging in this activity can be flushed out quite easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Funny, I always start with the gun I feel like gives me the best advantage. Switching to a second near identical gun (I would want it to be for consistency's sake) would only be done because my first, option A, best gun for the job was broken. I understand having to follow the rules and having the rules but jeez - most people I know start out trying to give themselves their best odds at doing well. JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 However, if Jonnie Shooter wanted to switch guns to fit the stage...I'd be more inclined to piss on his range gear than allow him to swap guns out. ROFL Most likely if they think switching guns is a "smart" thing to do, most likely they don't know what the heck they are doing anyway. Some people are just daft. If the gun is legal for the division, substitution shouldn't be an issue in my veiw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 However, if Jonnie Shooter wanted to switch guns to fit the stage...I'd be more inclined to piss on his range gear than allow him to swap guns out. I think you are required to keep it holstered unless you're in the safe area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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