2011 Weight

[jstagn]

Friend of mine has an older sv 40 cal. with a tungsten guide rod, gun weighs 48oz.+, shoots very soft with major loads. Interested in hearing others who like/dislike heavy guns and WHY. We are both C/B USPSA shooters. A+ shooters would probably like somewhat lighter guns for faster transitions and draws. Heavy guns tend to slow transitions down but what seems to be the max. weight if any.

[MikeRush]

I could write a manifesto on this... I'm on the record as being a light gun fiend... but I've been tempering that lately. Now that I work with a keyboard instead of a hammer it takes more effort and tension for me to run a super light LTD gun effectively, and there is a price to pay for that tension.

Heavy guns can not be transitioned as quickly as lighter ones. No matter what anyone says on a forum you won't see heavy guns at the front of the pack at Steel Challenge, for example. How much weight reduces felt recoil is debatable (see the train wreck of a threadjack in the old Tungsten Barrel thread), but it is generally accepted that a heavier gun will have reduced perceived recoil.

I saw the light gun light when I started using a timer- I found I could transition much more quickly and precisely. I could effectively float the gun to the target. I ran drills of what I was good at and found I could shoot great transitions and splits.

I recently have found that where I am taking a beating at matches is on splits and hits on partials and more distant targets. I ran some drills with a buddies edge style gun and found that while I wasn't faster I could get better hits more reliably in a more relaxed state. My strength isn't what I was when I started down the light gun rabbit hole.

I don't know that there is a max weight, but watching the guns of the super squad at LTD Nats I am pretty confident that most of the guys using 2011s with plastic grips are between 36 and 42 oz. The balance of a gun, or where it carries the weight also makes a big difference. Sure, there are guys shooting heavier guns- but they haven't been winning. A steel gripped gun can have a higher overall weight without being too nose heavy- just look at the Stock 2s.

At the end of the day its personal preference. The style of stages you shoot, how you shoot, and your size and skill all play into it. If you look at the majors in the Phillipines, for example, a lot of the stages don't have shots into the side berm and transitions are narrower. The guys with the most tungsten in their guns are dominating there. You see faster splits, slower transitions, and it works. In the US, there tend to be more wide transitions, and winners in Limited sound more like a steady stream of bullets than the pop pop, pop pop, double taps that win elsewhere. Overall- you have to try and decide. Its cheap to throw s briley aluminium guide rod in and see what is does to your hit factor on drills.

[PKT1106]

I have an STI Edge hard chromed with a PT 4140 Grip. It is heavy. I estimate it at 48oz with the grip, steel guide rod and steel mainspring housing. That's 3 pounds unloaded. It is a tank. But, I like the heavier feel. The steel grip and mainspring housing get the center of gravity lower. Recoil is very manageable. However, I am giving up some transitional movement due to physics. Inertia is a barrier. A heavier gun will require more force to get moving. A lighter gun will require less force.

The only thing I can try to do is strengthen my core, shoulders and chest to be able to move faster in my body and over come the mass at the end of my arms.

[trp]

Some people are tall some short, some strong some weak it all depends on your own personal preference

[jstagn]

Agree with everything said, but what USPSA class do you shoot?

[MikeRush]

Agree with everything said, but what USPSA class do you shoot?

Me? I'm at 79% so I'm an A. I'll make master in a few months. I actually had better recoil control when I was a B, but that's a separate issue.

As you improve you can generally go lighter. Brazos has a great article, light vs heavy, that goes over the options you have for altering the weight of the gun.

My next gun will be a mid weight, probably right around 37 oz.

Weight is a double edged sword. It makes the gun resistant to changing directions which is good for shooting and bad for transitioning. Honestly on a standards type stage I would love a very heavy gun. On a field course, or with closer targets the lighter guns shine for me. On average you will have more transitions than splits on any given stage... just depends how it works out for you. It takes tension and effort to drive a heavy gun from target to target. It takes tension and effort to control a lighter gun on the same target. If I could start over I'd probably target a 38 or so oz gun and stick with it all the way through. The exception is light 6s... but that's an entirely different topic!

[PKT1106]

I am a B shooter in Limited at 72%.

[ipscjoe]

The steel challenge is not uspsa. The majority of targets require two hits not one. If you can't put a comp on your gun you add weight. Plain and simple. If light was the end all be all Bob Vogal wouldn't put a lead filled weight (flashlight) on the end of his gun (a glock which is pretty dang light). He shot the pro am with it as well. Which is a single round per target match also.

[ipscjoe]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=196886&page=2

[APL-G35]

Made M last year. I have switched to a 48oz empty 6" limited gun. I've had some of my fastest runs on smoke and hope with it. I do t believe the crap anymore about heavy guns not being able to run as fast. I don't hear people complaining about open guns. Some of which are very heavy.

[jstagn]

Just how heavy is the average open gun ?

[tk4]

Made M last year. I have switched to a 48oz empty 6" limited gun. I've had some of my fastest runs on smoke and hope with it. I do t believe the crap anymore about heavy guns not being able to run as fast. I don't hear people complaining about open guns. Some of which are very heavy.

I totally agree with APL-G35. I have been a Master for several years and I also run a 48 oz 6" gun. I have yet to reach the point where I have found extra weight to be a negative. I wish I could try a 50 + oz gun side by side with mine.

[lawboy]

I run a 39oz 6-inch gun. I would love to see these 48oz 6-inch guns. They sound very interesting!

[MikeRush]

Just how heavy is the average open gun ?

High 30s to mid 40s. A chunk of that is the optic and mount, which is generally right over the hand. Super squad level open shooters tend to shoot short dust cover guns almost unanimously, and many of them use titanium compensators to save weight and prevent the guns from feeling nose heavy. Midlengths with shortened slides and barrels are becoming more popular now too.

A 48 oz gun with a metal grip might be less nose heavy and better balanced than a 40 oz plastic gripped gun. Balance is very important. Weight between or near your hands is more manageable than weight at the muzzle. For example, I put a stainless steel mainspring housing in my 6" that added weight low and to the rear of the gun. It actually made the gun feel lighter because the resulting balance was more neutral. Preferences vary, and while I am sure plenty of people will assert that the heavier the better, a wide variety of weights can work for Ltd.

Nils' gun is probably less than 40 oz. I haven't seen a weight (no flashlight pun intended) on Vogel's plastic fantastic, but remember he is starting with a 27 oz gun. He has also won Pro Am, even Pro Am Open division, with a much lighter iron sighted G24- I think Bob is a great Pro Am shooter. Dave Sevigny is running one of the lightest guns on the Ltd Super Squad, with a short dust cover- its probably between 34-36 oz, based on the SDC guns I have owned. That's the 1-2-3 combo at USPSA Nationals and World Shoot. Blake probably has the heaviest plastic gripped gun on the super squad, and I would be surprised if it was over 45 oz. Shane Coley shot second at LTD Nats in 2013, with probably one of the heaviest LTD guns to be used by a super squadder- 6" bull barrel, radically cut up slide.

Guys fielded 50 oz+ Standard guns at World Shoot- and they didn't win. With new steel grip options we may see more top level shooters choosing heavier (mid to high 40s) guns. For now, the midweights seem to be where its at. Doesn't mean people won't enjoy pushing around heavy guns, as some people clearly do! I'm not preaching the hardline, only offering observations on what people are using at the top levels of the sport. I know in my 2.5 years in the sport I am only an A, but as an aspiring GM these things fascinate me.

[amish_rabbi]

Its not a 2011, but i have a 46oz 1911 and its that sweet spot for me with .40 major loads. Now that is metal framed and a tungsten guide rod so it is only the tiniest bit nose heavy. I have shot a friends very light 2011 (sdc, light slide, plastic grip) and while it transitioned very well the snappyness effected my shooting. Conversly a stock edge feels quite good to me, but i would want to take some weight out of the slide and add it back with a metal grip.

This is IPSC though, which im told is generally harder/longer more awkward shots that USPSA. Im an M in classic div but ipsc has a different way of classifiing and id say im somewhere in the USPSA A class

[jstagn]

Now we are getting somewhere 'BALANCE' of the gun. My friends gun was not nose heavy and felt very balanced. Also personal preference and how you are physically, enters into the equation as stated by one of the responses. Where the weight is seems to be the key to this post. Super squad preferences are going to vary from the AVERAGE shooter. If you are close to that level then you should be paying attention to what they are using AND how they run a stage. When I competed in other sports the very top guys always had different setups. Thanks to all who responded.

[APL-G35]

To me balance is more important than weight. My 6" has a phoenix trinity steel frame, steel Main spring housing. The top end is a benny hill fat free. Gun balances well.

[GeorgeD]

I agree that the balance of the gun is more important than the weight. I shoot a short dust cover 2011 with a stainless grip. It balances nicely and weighs 49oz with empty mag. I have yet to be slowed down on transitions, draws or reloads because of weight.

Before I added the PT grip and used a brass ICE magwell, I think it made the gun butt heavy and made felt recoil feel more flippy. Like it was dragging the ass end down while shooting. With the steel grip I do not get that effect, the weight is balanced, doesn't make the gun feel like a fulcrum.

[3djedi]

I wonder how much this beauty weighs! Why did he put weight on the slide?

[kneelingatlas]

My first Open gun weighs 54oz, now I have a handful of guns all the way down to 38oz and I prefer the light guns, just point and click

[APL-G35]

I wonder how much this beauty weighs! Why did he put weight on the slide?

It's so ugly. Even the way he attached the weights. It makes me want to throw up.

Edited March 21, 2015 by APL-G35

[3djedi]

I wonder how much this beauty weighs! Why did he put weight on the slide?

It's so ugly. Even the way he attached the weights. It makes me want to throw up.

Lol....

Well, I guess it goes to show you don't need a fancy high dollar gun to win. I guess all you need is a flashlight, duct tape and sheet metal screws for high performance.

I do find it amazing what he can do with that ghetto rig. Dudes amazing......

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk

[SilverBolt]

I run a 6" Custom STI that weighs in at 37oz minus mag. I like the feel. It's well balanced and soft shooting.

[CHA-LEE]

Over the last year I went from an EAA Witness Limited (44oz) all steel gun, to a 2011 platform in Limited. My first 2011 Limited gun was a light weight "Eagle" style build (short dust cover, pushing barrel, plastic grip) with lots of slide lightening, aluminum mag well and steel mainspring housing. I can't remember its exact weight, but I think it was around 35oz +/- a couple oz. When I shot this gun, the felt recoil was a lot harsher than my EAA, which in its self isn't so bad, but its light weight caused a strange situation where the whole gun would displace off target when shooting from even a slightly circumvented stance or position. Like leaning around a wall or crouching. I would have to stop shooting and consciously drive the gun back to the aiming spot post shot because the gun was so light. The front sight would track straight up and right back down to level as it should, but the whole gun would displace off of my aiming spot on the target.

I added a stainless steel magwell, and tungsten guide rod and this brought the weight up to about 40oz. In this configuration the strange gun displacement was less of an issue, but it still happened. I still felt like I had to grip the living shit out of the gun to keep it from displacing off target while shooting fast in circumvented positions. In normal standing positions it was fine, but in USPSA you are not always afforded the opportunity to shoot from a "Normal" shooting position.

Since adding more weight seemed to help the issue, I had a second Limited gun built on an STI Long Wide frame with a Bull Barrel. This was basically an "Edge" style setup. Same slide lightening/weight as the first gun, but more weight on the frame side. I also kept the stainless magwell and tungsten guide rod. I think this second gun was about 45oz, and it had very little gun displacement issues while shooting from circumvented positions. I am a grip strength freak and grip the gun HARD, so this lead to my next problem. I was gripping the gun so hard during the reloads that I could trap the magazine in the gun by squishing the plastic grip into the magazine while it was still in the gun so it wouldn't drop free. I have fairly short thumbs so I tend to grip hard as I reach my thumb around to hit the mag release. Well the mags not dropping free during reloads issue wasn't going to get the job done so the only solution was to switch to a metal grip. I ordered up a Phoenix Trinity Stainless Steel grip and put it on the blaster as is, along with the tungsten guide rod and stainless steel grip. Now the gun weighed about 56oz. When I shot it in this configuration the felt recoil was so minimized that I actually laughed. The gun would literally NOT muzzle flip at all during recoil it was so heavy. This was great if you were shooting one target, but the target to target transitions were dramatically worse because of the extra weight. The on target splits were also slower because there was no muzzle flip to help promote the reset of the trigger.

Since the gun was too heavy now, I replaced the guide rod with a steel one, and the magwell with an aluminum one. Doing that brought the overall weight down to about 50oz. The gun still felt "heavy" when transitioning in dry fire, but surprisingly it didn't feel heavy any more in live fire. I could transition quickly with it and it only had a minute amount of muzzle flip. The little bit of muzzle flip helped with the trigger resetting and I was back to cranking out wicket fast on target splits. It also didn't exhibit any whole gun displacement issues when shooting from a circumvented position. Since this configuration seemed to solve all of the issues, I settled on this 50oz overall gun weight and have used it for the majority of this past year. To me, this weight of gun is now what feels "Normal" to me, and I can drive it as hard and as fast as I can see the sights.

I think that the overall gun weight really comes down to your recoil feel preference and shooting aggressiveness style. If you like a softer felt recoil then a heavier gun is what you will prefer. If your shooting style leans towards fast on target splits (sub .20 splits on a regular basis) then a heavier gun will help make that happen from less than optimal shooting positions. But in the end, I think a lot of it comes down to what you get use to. If you shoot a crap ton of ammo through whatever weight gun you are going to get use to that guns timing, recoil feeling, transition weight and grip requirement to run it effectively.

The cool thing is that the 2011 platform has a LOT of aftermarket parts following so you can fine tune it to work or feel exactly how you want it to. All it takes is time and money.

[nitrohuck]

Just had an SV stainless steel grip installed yesterday

Gun weighs 45oz, I can't wait to shoot it, the weight seems about perfect,

- Stainless steel grip

- stainless steel magwell

- SDC

- Sight-tracker barrel

Having the sight tracker barrel adds a good bit of weight to the front of the gun while allowing the slide to be super light. The SDC feels just about perfect, an LDC would perhaps make the gun too muzzle heavy and too hard to transition when in combo with the sight tracker. I really like that setup up top. Down low, having the stainless steel grip and stainless steel magwell is awesome, I'll take all the weight I can get if it's in my actual hands. After dry firing for a good while last night it doesn't seem to affect transitions what so ever having the heavier grip/magwell combo.