screwed up and registered as minor.

[bikerburgess]

If there is a error between what the shooter has confirmed and what is in the scoring system then the confirmed information should be used.

In the issue described above when he confirms his registration information prior to shooting he should ask to have it changed and only sign off on the correct information.

Ok, so you're saying if the match staff makes an error and fat fingers the wrong info, the shooter is screwed because he confirmed it, even tho he might have confirmed something else. That's a bit of a headscratcher.

Do you actually 'sign off' on anything at matches? I'm not sure I ever have.

No I'm saying that what you sign off on is your declaration. If there is a error between that and what is being used to score the match then it should absolutely be corrected.

And yes at every level 2 and above match I have been to I have had some system to confirm my entry information prior to shooting my first stage. The more I think about it I don't recall having to sign the paper but I was asked to confirm that the information on it was correct and if corrections were needed (I have had this happen) then they were made on that sheet in front of me, creating a record that could be checked in case of a discrepancy.

[Gary Stevens]

Every L-2 and above match I have attended has had shooter info on a sticker attached to the shooter packet. Name, class, division, power factor, shooter number, squad number.

Those that used paper score sheets had the same. Info on each score sheet. Often the scor keeper RO will call off the name, division and power factor prior to the shooter getting the Make Ready command.

This is important in SS because of the major minor round differences.

[gtown]

I am the shooter in question.

I signed up for this match in January 2 minutes after the registration opened. At the time, I was shooting minor in other class. I had just switched to limited (major). Didnt even think about again till half way thru the match. I was wondering why my H.F. was so low for the stages when the score keeper was calling them out. In my mind, I was thinking what a crappy day I was having. At the end of day 1 stages, we had a hour to call any gripes to attention. Everyone waived the gripe time so we could get the stages torn down and head out. On my way home I checked practiscore and see the "minor" listed by my name. HOLD UP, WTF buttercup. Started my panic emails and phone calls (thinking problem iissue was caught half way thru the match)

So now, After a few emails back and forth with my RO;s and a CRO, and the match director, It was determined that since the chrono stage was being tossed (the chrono owner/operator shot it) due to damage and no back up on hand, the PF ruling was reverting back to registration. They (all ROs/CRO/ MD) say that there was no way to prove my power factor. Must go with what I declared, kindly put, I should have double checked everything at check in.

I also asked, since I am going to be scored minor, can I shot minor equipment? NO was the answer, with rule numbers being stated. Fine, I will just now use this as an expensive practice day. (still had Sundays 5 stages to go)..

I even brought a question of, How do we know if all the other "major" declerations are true? Can I protest all other major shooters? (would never have done that, it was just a question) Answer was, Since no chrono, all other shooters go by registration.

Lessoned learned. The hard way, And yes, I believe it cost me at least a top 3 finish in my class, No big deal in the end. I still shot, shot like crap, had more fun than anyone else there. And even caught my screwed up SC state registration. (thank god, I would have been pissed then)

[afoulk]

Every L-2 and above match I have attended has had shooter info on a sticker attached to the shooter packet. Name, class, division, power factor, shooter number, squad number.

Those that used paper score sheets had the same. Info on each score sheet. Often the scor keeper RO will call off the name, division and power factor prior to the shooter getting the Make Ready command.

This is important in SS because of the major minor round differences.

It's also important in Revolver, which is why it should be explicitly stated in the rules. It's an easy change that could have been made in 2008, but for some reason, it wasn't. Prior to that, it really didn't matter at all when a declaration was made. In other than those two divisions, it doesn't matter at all.

Written declarations solve all this mess. Pencilwhipped signatures on sign in sheets don't prevent errors, no matter how diligent the person at sign in is. A declaration for official purposes should be a more positive thing. For those requiring a signature at sign in, put an extra space on the form for power factor and why not add another one for bullet weight. Done. All declarations written by the shooter in their own hand on match day. This could easily also be done with a declarations sheet at the first stage or when ammo is collected if it is not at the first stage.

Back in the day, paper scoresheets with pf declarations on them were a much more positive way of going about things. If sheets were filled out or had stickers applied by the shooter, it was much more likely to catch an error prior to it mattering.

[Nik Habicht]

I don't think I suggested that you have to sign anything -- just that you have to sign up for the match in a particular division.....

The place to fix mistakes is before you fire your first shot. After that, you own it....

[afoulk]

I don't think I suggested that you have to sign anything -- just that you have to sign up for the match in a particular division.....

The place to fix mistakes is before you fire your first shot. After that, you own it....

This is made up. Pervasive, perhaps, but still made up.

[Corey]

I am the shooter in question.

I signed up for this match in January 2 minutes after the registration opened. At the time, I was shooting minor in other class. I had just switched to limited (major). Didnt even think about again till half way thru the match. I was wondering why my H.F. was so low for the stages when the score keeper was calling them out. In my mind, I was thinking what a crappy day I was having. At the end of day 1 stages, we had a hour to call any gripes to attention. Everyone waived the gripe time so we could get the stages torn down and head out. On my way home I checked practiscore and see the "minor" listed by my name. HOLD UP, WTF buttercup. Started my panic emails and phone calls (thinking problem iissue was caught half way thru the match)

So now, After a few emails back and forth with my RO;s and a CRO, and the match director, It was determined that since the chrono stage was being tossed (the chrono owner/operator shot it) due to damage and no back up on hand, the PF ruling was reverting back to registration. They (all ROs/CRO/ MD) say that there was no way to prove my power factor. Must go with what I declared, kindly put, I should have double checked everything at check in.

I also asked, since I am going to be scored minor, can I shot minor equipment? NO was the answer, with rule numbers being stated. Fine, I will just now use this as an expensive practice day. (still had Sundays 5 stages to go)..

I even brought a question of, How do we know if all the other "major" declerations are true? Can I protest all other major shooters? (would never have done that, it was just a question) Answer was, Since no chrono, all other shooters go by registration.

Lessoned learned. The hard way, And yes, I believe it cost me at least a top 3 finish in my class, No big deal in the end. I still shot, shot like crap, had more fun than anyone else there. And even caught my screwed up SC state registration. (thank god, I would have been pissed then)

Other than downloaded ammo, what other equipment is "minor equipment"?

As for the part about other major declarations being true or now, there is no way to KNOW without the chrono. Without it, we go by what was used at registration:

5.6.1 One or more official match chronographs are used to assist in the determination of the power factor of every competitor’s ammunition. In the absence of official match chronograph(s), the power factor declared by a competitor cannot be challenged. (emphasis added)

Like you said, lesson learned and from now on, I will almost guarantee this will never happen to you again.

[gtown]

Minor equipment as mentioned was a double stack 9mm (glock34 or a RI) and different holster. And you are correct. Lesson learned.

[motosapiens]

I don't think I suggested that you have to sign anything -- just that you have to sign up for the match in a particular division.....

The place to fix mistakes is before you fire your first shot. After that, you own it....

That is always good if it's possible, however registration errors still seem to happen AFTER you sign up and confirm everything, and IMHO should be corrected, whether it's division, gender, name, uspsa number or powerfactor. Certainly a good lesson to learn tho to double-check, especially if you shoot in multiple divisions, or shoot both major and minor in SS.

[MAC702]

Appendix C3 of the Rules may be interesting. One declares he is using Official Match Ammunition BEFORE starting the match. However, at any time they are allowed to begin using non-official ammo as long as they withdraw their declaration prior to its use. So, there is obviously a method and precedent in place for changing declarations during a match.

[Sarge]

Goodness gracious! I finally decided to look in and see how this could balloon to 4 pages. Then I saw that Moto was involved.........

This really seemed quite cut and dried from the first post. Live and learn.

[motosapiens]

Goodness gracious! I finally decided to look in and see how this could balloon to 4 pages. Then I saw that Moto was involved.........

This really seemed quite cut and dried from the first post. Live and learn.

Lol, you have any tribal rules to add to the thread, or do you just want to make comments about other forum members? Maybe this forum isn't a good fit for you.

[Sarge]

Goodness gracious! I finally decided to look in and see how this could balloon to 4 pages. Then I saw that Moto was involved.........

This really seemed quite cut and dried from the first post. Live and learn.

Maybe this forum isn't a good fit for you.

Maybe not but it will be when I'm done with it!

[twodownzero]

There is nothing in the rules that states that a person must declare their PF before the match begins. By that same logic, a production shooter who gets bumped to open may not declare major. Nobody has ever provided me with any rule to prevent that from happening.

The rules should be interpreted to try to be fair to competitors when possible. There is no competitive equity lost by allowing the correction of an error.

Funny that's not how I remember it from RO school......

6.2 Match Divisions

6.2.1 USPSA Divisions recognize different handguns and equipment (see Appendix D). Each match must recognize at least one Division. When multiple Divisions are available in a match, each Division must be scored separately and independently, and match results must recognize a winner in each Division.

6.2.2 In USPSA sanctioned matches, the minimum number of competitors stipulated in Appendix A2 must compete in each Division for it to be recognized. If there are insufficient competitors in a Division, the Match Director may allow that Division to stand without official USPSA recognition.

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire.

Emphasis mine. Right at the beginning of 6.2 we're introduced to the concept that the divisions recognize different equipment and guns -- and there's a reference to Appendix D. Appendix D items 1&2 clarify which power factors are available for recognition within the division.

6.2.3 clarifies that prior to commencement of the match (meaning before the competitor fires his first shot) he/she must declare one division for score. Notice that the word score is incorporated in that sentence. When declaring a division other than Production, the follow-up question is "Which Power Factor." Until we have that, we don't have a proper division declaration.

These aren't new principles -- and there's certainly nothing about SS and Revolver that provides any new impetus for declaring power factor before firing the first shot -- that principle is probably as old as USPSA. It was certainly expected when I started in the sport in 2001, and mentioned in my first RO class in 2002, and reaffirmed in classes I've attended since.

Once you fire the first round, you own your declaration, unless chrono moves you down or out. Simple.

To those of you talking about typos -- check your work before clicking submit, or pay attention when you arrive at registration for the match -- that's your opportunity to change divisions or power factors, not after you've started shooting the match.

Over the years I've gone from engaging you in conversation about the rules to ignoring you because it's obvious that you choose whatever position you want to defend and later try to rationalize it. There is nothing in the rules you've provided that rationalizes your position. As usual, you have provided ZERO textual support for your answer. Everyone can render their own judgment about whether you're right, but I stand behind what I said. There is not anything in the rules stating that the PF declaration must be made at some point, nor anything preventing a Production shooter who is bumped to open from declaring Major at that time (and also using 170mm mags, etc.).

It doesn't matter what you remember from your RO class. If your RMI taught you wrong, wrong is still wrong. The ONLY authority on the rules are the rules themselves and binding interpretations from the NROI. Your RMI or your RO class provide no authority whatsoever to interpret the rules.

Also, declaring a division has basically nothing to do with PF. They are separate declarations. In fact, a shooter who declares "production" has arguably not made any declaration at all.

Edited March 18, 2015 by twodownzero

[MAC702]

twodownzero: "...There is not anything in the rules ... preventing a Production shooter who is bumped to open from declaring Major at that time... In fact, a shooter who declares "production" has arguably not made any declaration at all..."

Well, actually, Appendix D4 Special Conditions, 4th paragraph, does actually address this one: "Anyone signing up for Production is declaring minor.... Should they be moved to another division, they will shoot minor for the entire match..."

I apologize that I can't figure out yet how to reliably snip quotes for relevant brevity on this forum.

So there is a precedent in place that a declared power factor can't be changed during the match. This paragraph specified that this was "regardless if the ammunition makes major at the chronograph," in fact.

Edited March 18, 2015 by MAC702

[twodownzero]

twodownzero: "...There is not anything in the rules ... preventing a Production shooter who is bumped to open from declaring Major at that time... In fact, a shooter who declares "production" has arguably not made any declaration at all..."

Well, actually, Appendix D4 Special Conditions, 4th paragraph, does actually address this one: "Anyone signing up for Production is declaring minor.... Should they be moved to another division, they will shoot minor for the entire match..."

I apologize that I can't figure out yet how to reliably snip quotes for relevant brevity on this forum.

So there is a precedent in place that a declared power factor can't be changed during the match. This paragraph specified that this was "regardless if the ammunition makes major at the chronograph," in fact.

That must be new and I will take my lashings for not keeping updated on that.

[motosapiens]

Goodness gracious! I finally decided to look in and see how this could balloon to 4 pages. Then I saw that Moto was involved.........

This really seemed quite cut and dried from the first post. Live and learn.

Maybe this forum isn't a good fit for you.

Maybe not but it will be when I'm done with it!

That brought me a smile. thank you. I hope to meet you in person someday and buy you a beer (or share one of my homebrews).

fwiw, i thought this was an interesting and educational discussion.