What's happened to USPSA/IPSC clubs?

[atbarr]

There's a label for this type of scurrilous behavior - "trolling".

I'm not taking up for him, but "trolling"?

He has almost 2700 posts.

[teros135]

True, but his MD and others seem to have said (and I apologize if I read their posts wrong) that what he said isn't true. Perhaps he was just trying to stir something up, and that's commonly referred to as trolling. I now have to question whether I can trust what he says, and I hate to lose that trust, 2700 posts or not.

[toothguy]

Nimitz isn't a bad guy, I like reading his range diary. He probably just misspoke from something he heard at the range and thought it was true. He is definitely not a troll and we need to give each other some slack sometimes.

[teros135]

Okay. It's only been a little while since his posting, and it'll be nice to hear from him. I'm sure he'll clarify.

Edited February 26, 2015 by teros135

[Sarge]

OK. Slack given. But he is now on double top secret probation!

[remoandiris]

To be (more) clear, the club authorities at Malabar decided there were enough things wrong with recent USPSA matches that they temporarily suspended the membership for some of the USPSA match administrators. I don't know all the details but the issue seemed to be about match set-up. It's a shame because the last match I went to was a blast. They are asking for volunteers to help run the matches which I'd love to do but for the last year I've worked every other weekend and even on my "free" Saturdays, I've typically arrived home from the hospital Friday midnight or later. March will free up somewhat so I'll do what I can to pitch in.

Your key phrase is "I don't know all the details". If you are a club member, why don't you login to the club's webpage and read the replies to the suspension announcement. In those replies you will read how the club's board VIOLATED the CLUB'S BYLAWS. The person who posted the announcement PERSONALLY violated the bylaws as well.

There is a LONG history of animosity between the board, the MD, and USPSA that has NOTHING to do with this thread.

[motosapiens]

I think Nimitz definitely overstepped the line, because it implied the club itself was actively involved. Around here it's strictly individual ninja vengeance against those who don't help. You cut them some slack once or twice, but after that you occasionally (surreptitiously) toss a squib round or double-charge into their ammo bag while they're shooting the stage. Club knows nothing about it.

(disclaimer: for those that got up on the humorless side of bed this morning, this is completely made up, and only intended to make you laugh. We have enough people shooting glocks at our club already, we have no reason to try to make any MORE guns blow up).

[Jim Norman]

I am against paying for set-up on a general basis. OK, IF we were able to set-up the night before, I could see paying 6 people to set-up 6 stages. All that should need to be done on Match day is to staple targets, but trying to do that on match day?!? I thin k as Vlad alluded to would be a disaster trying t track who did what how long. It would be a much better world if everyone chipped in an hour. Show up at 0800, head to a pit with your buds, build a single stage. Should not take more than one hour, stop at Stats, register and go gear up, walk-though at 0945, shoot at 1000.

BUT NO!, Show up at 0930, start walking stages while they are still being finished and then bitch that the match starts late. Maybe you all need to plan your days a bit better. This is supposed to be FUN!, Remember? It is not supposed to be a stress filled chore! Don't plan dinner with the in-laws at 2pm when you are traveling to a 7 stage match! Don't try to sneak in a little fishing before the match starts! Get up, drive out, help out, meet a few friends, meet some new people, enjoy yourselves, shoot, put it away and go home. The 6 or 8 people that are currently doing all the work are getting tired at most clubs. one day you'll show up and be handed a stage diagram and told, you want to shoot a match? Get off your sorry butt and go build it, We are going to sit around and watch today!

Or maybe we'll just decide we aren't doing this anymore. Then where will you be? Would you step up and run the match? Could you? Or will you just bitch about losing another venue? I Hope for the former, but I'd bet on the latter.

Oh, and yes we are all getting tired. The thank yous we get are great, but what we really would like is about 2 hours of your time.

Thank you!

[Flatland Shooter]

Not that I'm recommending it, but has any club done match registration before the stages are set up?

Lets say registration begins at 8:00 AM and when you sign up you are squadded and assigned to a work crew to set up a stage. More complex stages would have a larger work crew.

At 8:30 AM registration closes and each crew sets up their designated stage. As soon as their assigned stage is setup, they can then join their squad to begin shooting.

Anyone that shows up late is SOL. This would only work if it were enforced.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Flatland Shooter

[Aggieddad02]

I have shot a match at a club that has been around for sometime and continues to enjoy large participation because of great leadership. You sign up in advance and are assigned to a squad. When you get there to shoot you are told what stage you are starting on and that squad sets up the stage. When you finish the match whatever stage you finish on you tear down. All props have been set out for you in the bay you start on and you stack up all the props on the bay you finish on. The club then only has to set out and pick up props. Works great for me

[jrbet83]

So there is not an explicit rule for the club, but there is tacit approval throughout the membership.

What club is this?

WTH??? Where do you get that there is tacit approval throughout the membership? Did you skip reading comprehension at your school?

You didn't answer the question. What club is this?

[Jim Norman]

I have shot a match at a club that has been around for sometime and continues to enjoy large participation because of great leadership. You sign up in advance and are assigned to a squad. When you get there to shoot you are told what stage you are starting on and that squad sets up the stage. When you finish the match whatever stage you finish on you tear down. All props have been set out for you in the bay you start on and you stack up all the props on the bay you finish on. The club then only has to set out and pick up props. Works great for me

We do about 2/3 of that. We register online in advance, mostly so we have an idea of how many and also to load up the electronics. We pull out one trailer per stage loaded with everything you need to build the stage. The builders build and the watchers watch, but at the end of the day, where ever you finish up, you tear it down and put it on the trailer. That has cut about 1-1/2 hours at a minimum from our too long of a day.

I'd say we have, all in all a pretty good group of people. yes there are some that watch, some that think becasue they did something for a year or two 10 or 15 years ago hat they have 'paid their dues', but most people get the idea. Those that don't we take their money, but they will never really be a part of it an dthey don't know what they are missing.

[Prov1x]

What you guys are describing in the last few posts would never, never work around here. I said earlier one club that had been operating uspsa matches the longest tried that and those matches shut down within 2 to 3 months. It just doesn't work here.

Every club in our state, almost 100% certain, sets up the day before and only has to hang targets the next morning and maybe a few odds and ends but that's it. I don't know how many helpers they have but it's gotta be more than 2 or 3.

We have an awesome group of shooters, I'm not saying they're not. But assigning a squad to build a stage, then shoot, honestly doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me. And I don't think I would do it if I still had to pay. Maybe that's just what we are used to around here.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Prov1x

[motosapiens]

We have an awesome group of shooters, I'm not saying they're not.

But assigning a squad to build a stage, then shoot, honestly doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me. And I don't think I would do it if I still had to pay. Maybe that's just what we are used to around here.

Wait, what? I'm confused.... How can they be awesome if they don't pitch in?

Heck, even working nationals I had numerous shooters offer to give us a hand when we were replacing targets (totally unnecessary at a big $ match), those guys are awesome.

[Flatland Shooter]

What you guys are describing in the last few posts would never, never work around here. I said earlier one club that had been operating uspsa matches the longest tried that and those matches shut down within 2 to 3 months. It just doesn't work here.

But assigning a squad to build a stage, then shoot, honestly doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me. And I don't think I would do it if I still had to pay.

I'm sorry to hear that. Did shooters just stop showing up when they found out they would need to help set up or was there something else? If it was a case where it became necessary to get the shooters to help out after all those years it meant that the small group of folks that did the setup before just got tired of it. If so, the club may have been doomed even before the change.

Yeah, setting up stages is not all that much fun, but if you are not willing to help out what makes you so special? (Not directed at you, directed at all the folks that have come to expect the old farts to do all the prep work and act like its their God given right to just shoot and scoot.)

Several weeks ago I got squadded with a group of shooters I had never met. Turns out it was a group of prima donas that felt they were so good that they did not need to set steel or tape targets. I worked my ass off that match and it was by far the least fun I've ever had shooting.

I do not have any matches closer than a hour and half from the house. A round trip the day before the match just don't work for me. But on those matches that setup the morning of the match, I'm willing to get there a little early and help. And those that help out are still paying the full match fee.

After all, its a volunteer sport. You already know that (USPSA at USSA), so I would think you would agree that its better for all the shooters to be involved instead of a relying of a core few.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Flatland Shooter

[jt15550]

I've only attended a few matches so far, but I've already set up a stage and helped almost every other time. We've got good participation and leadership, although I fairly certain things are going to slow down in summer.

My main gripe is that the same group of people that help set up a stage seems to be the same group that tears it down.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk HK, probably while driving.

[remoandiris]

So there is not an explicit rule for the club, but there is tacit approval throughout the membership.

What club is this?

WTH??? Where do you get that there is tacit approval throughout the membership? Did you skip reading comprehension at your school?

You didn't answer the question. What club is this?

Some place you will likely never shoot, Port Malabar Rifle and Pistol Club, Palm Bay, Fl. Now that you have the information, what are you going to do with it? Jump to more bad conclusions?

[Prov1x]

We have an awesome group of shooters, I'm not saying they're not.

But assigning a squad to build a stage, then shoot, honestly doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me. And I don't think I would do it if I still had to pay. Maybe that's just what we are used to around here.

Wait, what? I'm confused.... How can they be awesome if they don't pitch in?

Heck, even working nationals I had numerous shooters offer to give us a hand when we were replacing targets (totally unnecessary at a big $ match), those guys are awesome.

They're awesome that they will shoot my match and tear down the stage they finish on.

When I took over, it's always been, set up the evening before, hang targets the morning of and then register and shoot. That's just how things work around here and I don't think it would work any other way. We have a lot of guys drive 1.5 to 2 hours each way to shoot. I would never expect them to get here earlier than necessary to help.

Once there at the match, everyone helps with tape, reset, replace etc...Heck I drive 45 minutes to 2 hours each way to shoot local matches.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Prov1x

[Prov1x]

What you guys are describing in the last few posts would never, never work around here. I said earlier one club that had been operating uspsa matches the longest tried that and those matches shut down within 2 to 3 months. It just doesn't work here.

But assigning a squad to build a stage, then shoot, honestly doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me. And I don't think I would do it if I still had to pay.

I'm sorry to hear that. Did shooters just stop showing up when they found out they would need to help set up or was there something else? If it was a case where it became necessary to get the shooters to help out after all those years it meant that the small group of folks that did the setup before just got tired of it. If so, the club may have been doomed even before the change.

Several weeks ago I got squadded with a group of shooters I had never met. Turns out it was a group of prima donas that felt they were so good that they did not need to set steel or tape targets. I worked my ass off that match and it was by far the least fun I've ever had shooting.

After all, its a volunteer sport. You already know that (USPSA at USSA), so I would think you would agree that its better for all the shooters to be involved instead of a relying of a core few.

Participation started dwindling after the match began to start late because set up wasn't finished. Then it turned into set up the morning of and then nobody showed up.

That would never happen at my match, people who are working and resetting will call you out if you're not helping.

Thanks for the plug! I would like a set up crew of 4, 5 max, because if I have too many that shoot for free I won't have any money for materials.

[Sarge]

Prov1x I think you are doing it right! Of course that's because it is practically identical to the way I do my match. Keep up the good work.

[motosapiens]

We have a lot of guys drive 1.5 to 2 hours each way to shoot. I would never expect them to get here earlier than necessary to help.

That's reasonable. Maybe our view is so skewed because our ranges are so close. I'm only 10 mins drive from the main range I shoot at, and 40 mins from two others.

Our view may also be skewed because after years of doing it, folks here can set up a match in a big hurry. Occasionally we might run 10 mins behind if it's really windy, but matches generally start on time.

When you think about it, you have to show up 30 mins early anyway just to get organized, loaded, registered, take a quick walkthrough, etc... If you could show up another 60 mins early and that was all the setup that was needed, and no one would have to come out the day before, and no one would have to shoot for free, and match fees could be $10-15, and the whole match from start to finish could take 5 hrs (including setup and teardown), why wouldn't most people who lived reasonably close just do that? Especially if you knew the alternative was putting too much work on a small group until they got burned out, and being screwed if no one else would step up to take on that work.

This way, if some people leave, new people join, and all they have to do is show up the same 60 mins earlier as the rest of us do.

[Prov1x]

Prov1x I think you are doing it right! Of course that's because it is practically identical to the way I do my match. Keep up the good work.

Thanks Sarge!

[mach1soldier]

Chad,

Your doing a great job. You run a premiere match that I wish was closer. It's worth the 3 hour drive each way.

I love to help but my closest club is 1.5 hours away. There is no way to come the day before for me. I'll help tear down in a heartbeat though and do my best to always thank the MD if I know who he is.

[Sarge]

Chad,

Your doing a great job. It's worth the 3 hour drive each way.

That speaks volumes! Not many local matches I would drive that far for.

[jrbet83]

So there is not an explicit rule for the club, but there is tacit approval throughout the membership.

What club is this?

WTH??? Where do you get that there is tacit approval throughout the membership? Did you skip reading comprehension at your school?

You didn't answer the question. What club is this?

Some place you will likely never shoot, Port Malabar Rifle and Pistol Club, Palm Bay, Fl. Now that you have the information, what are you going to do with it? Jump to more bad conclusions?

Keep getting defensive.....it really proves your point.