Possible Elimination of ESR

[seanc]

Its all conjecture. Mine is this, the classifier is not like a match, at all.

same shooter, shooting boths guns, moonclips are going to be faster over the long haul and a variety of stages.

yes major pf sucks, but not that much.

if its the indian and not the arrow, then the arrows are always accurate, so the ones that load fastest are going to be fastest.

[enemeth]

According to the 2014 Rules Review Process one week after the member suggestion period closes "Tiger Team members will meet to discuss suggestions. Team members will be asked to gather information from shooters outside the team to answer any questions they have."

Has anyone that shoots revolver been approached by a Tiger Team member and asked any questions? If you have, could you please leave a post about their questions to you?

I would like to know if they showed any concern for the members that shoot revolvers.The members deserve to have their suggestions considered, followed up with questions presented to the members and an open mind to all options. Unfortunately the lack of open discussion and exchange of different perspectives before "elimination" creates a division (pun intended) between members and HQ. I did see a lot of good member suggestions submitted that would encourage more participation in both ESR and SSR. It seems like HQ should have at least given the members a heads up that their suggestions would be irrelevant because ESR was going to be dropped and "possibly" rolled into SSR. At least then members could address relevant issues based on those circumstances.

Edited November 22, 2014 by enemeth

[hkguy]

I just took delivery of BIllR1's beautiful 625. the thing just shoots and now im all depressed because IDPA hates me. Im a 3 years SSR shooter that, at my last classifier was border line SS/EX shooting a lowly GP100. I was planning on making a run at SSR MA then switching to shooting ESR. I can tell you that at my club, i can keep up with most of the MA's on my first 6 shots and i typically finish inside the top 25% of 80-110 shooters at out monthly matches.

Personally, If IHQ's biggest reason for eliminating ESR is to hand out a few less "participation trophies", then they need to amend the rule on handing out awards, its a rather simple fix. Its rather disheartening to know that my membership and match fees are worth less than someone shooting SSP with their hi point. This just screams slippery slope to me, first ESR, then SSP, and then CDP will be on the chopping block as the division with the lowest participation, will Bill Wilson be able to save it? keep in mind, most of this is tongue in cheek.

My three requests to IHQ are rather simple for eliminating ESR:

What are going to do to promote the lone revolver division and help it grow? Revo Nats? Revo regional championships?

Would you limit CDP to 8 rounds and allow ESR legal revolvers and open CDP to allow .40, 10mm, .45, etc?

Would you limit SSP to 10 rounds and allow 8 shot .357/38spl revolvers to compete with 105pf ammo in SSP?

I feel this is a better way to give revolver shooters a chance to still play in IDPA and take advantage of the latest designs. I personally would love to shoot a 627 in SSP. But i know this is just a dream.......

[GOF]

Not a bad idea! Why not let a 8 shot 105 PF revolver compete in SSP against 125 PFs semi-autos that start will 11 and load ten? What's the problem? Let folks shoot. Why not let a 6 shot ESR gun compete in CDP?

If the shooters are willing to accept that challenge... why not let them shoot?

[afoulk]

While I like the idea of allowing revolvers to participate in the pistol divisions, I think we need to go to them. In other words, don't change the pistol divisions at all and don't reduce power factor at all. If we want to play, we take the hit. In SSP with an 8 shot, we are really only at a slight disadvantage for courses of fire between 12 and 16 rounds. In 9 to 11 and 17 to 18 round courses of fire, we take an extra reload. Seeing how infrequently I see stages between 9 and 11 rounds, I'll take that deal all day to shoot an 8 shot versus pistols. In the classifier, we'd have to do real reloads with retention in stage 3, but that's doable.

6 shot major in CDP would be the same deal. We'd play at a slightly higher disadvantage in CDP with major power factor and an extra reload for 13-18 round courses of fire. I'd still take it.

[mcb]

I did similar in USPSA. In the run up to this years nationals. At local club matches we usually shoot two guns. To get more trigger time on my N-frames, I would use my 6-Shot Major revolver in Revolver division and then I would use my 8-Shot Minor Revolver in Production division.

IDPA could do similar to USPSA (Gasp!!!!) If you look up the rules for USPSA Production there are a few special rules for Production Division that are exceptions or special cases for Revolver shooters that are competing in Production Division. ie revolvers in Production division are exempt from fitting in the Production Box. Moonclip holder are exempt from the position rules for magazine pouches and a few other revolver specific clarification are in the equipment rules for Production. IDPA could do similar, address divisional rules in the light of allowing revolvers to compete in the division. You wouldn't have to change the division for the semi-autos just add text to make exceptions or clarify how particular rules would impact a revolver shooter wanting to compete in that division.

[seanc]

I did similar in USPSA. In the run up to this years nationals. At local club matches we usually shoot two guns. To get more trigger time on my N-frames, I would use my 6-Shot Major revolver in Revolver division and then I would use my 8-Shot Minor Revolver in Production division.

IDPA could do similar to USPSA (Gasp!!!!) If you look up the rules for USPSA Production there are a few special rules for Production Division that are exceptions or special cases for Revolver shooters that are competing in Production Division. ie revolvers in Production division are exempt from fitting in the Production Box. Moonclip holder are exempt from the position rules for magazine pouches and a few other revolver specific clarification are in the equipment rules for Production. IDPA could do similar, address divisional rules in the light of allowing revolvers to compete in the division. You wouldn't have to change the division for the semi-autos just add text to make exceptions or clarify how particular rules would impact a revolver shooter wanting to compete in that division.

Forking to a new subject, but just an fyi. Revolvers are exempt from the box, but not externally visible mods, so bobbed hammer knocks you out of production. Not sure if that applies to you or not.

I know because I have done what you mentioned many times, shot my 627 in prod because there were no other rev's only to later find out I was acutally in open. I ended up declaring l10 after that because there is ususally some L10 going on around here.

[Racinready300ex]

I'm game for letting wheel guns play in the pistol divisions. That would probably get me back to a IDPA match.

I'd say keep the PF the same, I can make 125 easy with a 4" 627. Just make it so I don't have to fit in the box, and can move my moon clips around a little. Following revo rules of course. Same with CDP, keep it at 165 and let us play. I can't see how that would hurt anyone at all. It gives ESR guys a place to shoot, and can allow some USPSA guys to break out there 627's. Maybe give allow us our 5" barrels back when in a pistol division.

I've shot my 627 a few times in "not for comp" division at the local IDPA match. And beating all the SSP and ESP guys was no problem for the most part.

Still leave SSR as it is.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Racinready300ex

[mcb]

I did similar in USPSA. In the run up to this years nationals. At local club matches we usually shoot two guns. To get more trigger time on my N-frames, I would use my 6-Shot Major revolver in Revolver division and then I would use my 8-Shot Minor Revolver in Production division.

IDPA could do similar to USPSA (Gasp!!!!) If you look up the rules for USPSA Production there are a few special rules for Production Division that are exceptions or special cases for Revolver shooters that are competing in Production Division. ie revolvers in Production division are exempt from fitting in the Production Box. Moonclip holder are exempt from the position rules for magazine pouches and a few other revolver specific clarification are in the equipment rules for Production. IDPA could do similar, address divisional rules in the light of allowing revolvers to compete in the division. You wouldn't have to change the division for the semi-autos just add text to make exceptions or clarify how particular rules would impact a revolver shooter wanting to compete in that division.

Forking to a new subject, but just an fyi. Revolvers are exempt from the box, but not externally visible mods, so bobbed hammer knocks you out of production. Not sure if that applies to you or not.

I know because I have done what you mentioned many times, shot my 627 in prod because there were no other rev's only to later find out I was acutally in open. I ended up declaring l10 after that because there is ususally some L10 going on around here.

No bobbed hammer here, although my aftermarket cylinder release is probably not allowed in Production. I could switch that back and forth easily enough.

None-the-less revolver shooters are shooting at a disadvantage against semi-auto's and USPSA realizes this and has written the equipment rules to allow revolvers to compete in several other divisions (I believe revolvers can play in all but Single-Stack) with certain concessions and clarification as needed for each division (particularly Production).

Edited November 24, 2014 by mcb

[S-Hurt]

Getting IDPA to allow more guns like the 8 shot will be like pulling teeth! I say create more divisions, allow more guns, and allow more people to shoot. More divisions can keep us all on a more equal playing field. Maybe I'm way off here but my competitive nature wants to compete on an equal playing field with guns / equipment.

I assume we are waiting 6-8 weeks for HQ to decide what rules we will play by in 2015-16? HQ sending an email talking about the elimination of ESR has led to uncertainty and distrust in my eyes. It has put many of us in a state of limbo with our guns and equipment. Hell, I don’t know if I should start practicing with my 686 or 625 this winter …. Which is going to be the better fit for the IDPA revolver division? Although I enjoy shooting, I want to use the best gun and equipment for the division.

[afoulk]

I'd play in ESP with my Pro series 627 if they let me keep my Hogue extended cylinder release. Having to keep swapping it out would be a pain.

MCB has it right. Only make the clarifications that are required to let us play in their division. Their game shouldn't have to change at all.

Mike has it right, too. Leave SSR alone.

[Cd662]

Aaron -

Why? Are you talking about for fun at a local match or at a sanctioned match? Why would you spend roughly 100 dollars per sanctioned event so you can get destroyed (due to scoring inevitability) by some autoloaders? This is a mirror of the USPSA Revolver discussion.

Racinready - You are a solid revolver shooter, I would expect you to beat local goobers. Could a USPSA Grand Master in Revolver beat a similarly skilled USPSA Grand Master in Production? Ruling out favorable course designs, probably not. Three extra shots is a lot of extra shots. You're a USPSA Master, if I'm not mistaken. You shoot well and I give you all the credit in the world, but if someone has three more bullets than you, its not a level playing field. I beat people shooting SSP, ESP, or Production all the time while shooting my wheelgun. It doesn't mean that I'm particularly good, it means they're particularly bad.

IDPA club matches are supposed to allow the "Not for Competition" division to accommodate weird guns that could possibly be used for carrying purposes. All of the 625s fit in that role. It's the same thing as shooting Revolvers in USPSA in a non-Revolver division. If people just want to participate in the game with a 625, then you don't care about how to do it. The ESR participation as all of IDPA's large scale events has been ridiculous. I don't really care if they keep it or leave it, but reality has to be acknowledged here. People don't want to shoot ESR. For you people that want to save it, do you shoot ESR regularly at IDPA sanctioned events? Where are your names on the rosters? It could be regional, but I don't see a lot of ESR happening in the northeast (including NY and PA).