IDPA Final Rulebook

[Magnum314]

... is up on their site.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I can live with it, but shoot the moon holders are no longer allowed.

The pictures added as to what is and what is not allowed are an excellent addition.

It is final, I am done discussing it, I now need to read all I can and understand what is there.

Thanks to all, both IDPA staff and those shooters that contributed.

Regards,

Gary

Here is the link http://www.idpa.com/rulebook/IDPARuleBook2005final.pdf

[BadShot]

I like most of what I see. I have been using Blade-Tech moonclip holders. I have never used any other kind. What kind of moonclip holders will now be legal?

Skip

[GRD]

A couple out-of-the-blue changes:

- it looks like the Failure-to-Neutralize penalty has been completely changed. Now, any target without at least one -1 zone hit is going to score FTN. That's -1 zone or better, I assume...if you take it literally you can't have two -0 hits and get away from the FTN...who proofreads this stuff!?

- Slide-Lock-Reloads are not allowed in the open, so that was short-lived.

- You can assign a shooter a PE for failing to use cover even if you didn't get the warning out and never had a chance to yell 'cover' during the stage.

- Gabe

PS: The incredibly silly 'daylight' and 2" rules are still there.

[Ted Murphy]

- it looks like the Failure-to-Neutralize penalty has been completely changed. Now, any target without at least one -1 zone hit is going to score FTN. That's -1 zone or better, I assume...if you take it literally you can't have two -0 hits and get away from the FTN...who proofreads this stuff!?

They always said that they wanted to do away with people having to figure out how many points were on a target.

Ted

[Clay1]

"The incredibly silly 'daylight' and 2" rules are still there." Yes it is, but I have to take the same tact as Round Gun Shooter. I have to move forward at this moment. I sent three letters to HQ on this same subject and they kept it. Now it is time for the heat gun to come out and play with Kydex. Upsets me, but this is the last I will complain about it. Now it's time to shoot by the rules or move on to something different.

[GRD]

I hear ya, Clay. The gavel has dropped.

- Gabe

[Carmoney]

RGS: Looks to me like the CCW moonclip holders are fine, but the Blade-Tech double-holders are outlawed. What am I missing here??

[MikeyG23]

"The incredibly silly 'daylight' and 2" rules are still there."  Yes it is, but I have to take the same tact as Round Gun Shooter.  I have to move forward at this moment.  I sent three letters to HQ on this same subject and they kept it.  Now it is time for the heat gun to come out and play with Kydex.  Upsets me, but this is the last I will complain about it.  Now it's time to shoot by the rules or move on to something different.

My sentiments exactly.

I personally wrote 4 e-mails on this very subject and Joyce replied to the last one stating that it would be taken under consideration......

All any of us can do at this time is move forward and possibly away

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

RGS:  Looks to me like the CCW moonclip holders are fine, but the Blade-Tech double-holders are outlawed.  What am I missing here??

You missed the required post through the center. see page 39 or there abouts

D. Either be of open top configuration that covers at least 60% of the diameter and100% of the cartridge height and retains the moon clip by tension and a stud that protrudes through the center of the clip, or retain the moon clip with a snap or Velcro closure.

The post is on the 38/357clips only not the 40/45. I know I have seen some somewhere and I e mailed Tom K to ask if he had them. No big deal, I can load from my pocket if I choose to shoot ESR.

Regards,

Edited to add section from rules

[redmist10]

CROSS POST -

Thanks to the efforts of Bill, Joyce, and the countless others behind the scenes that have patiently listened to our comments, complaints, and consternations; I truly believe that the irregularities and imbalances of the SSR and ESR

division(s) have been fixed to a satisfactory and very usable degree.

True to my word, I will continue my “crusade” to raise the SSR and ESR divisions to record setting levels!

Understandably, there will still be some mulling over of the fine points concerning equipment, etc. but all things considered we have a workable rulebook concerning these two divisions. TONS better than original and much better than the first draft of revisions.

Thanks Bill and Joyce, etc. for your efforts .

[Carmoney]

OK, RGS, so we're saying the "stud" has to extend up through the sheet metal clip itself--and the plastic spindle on the CCW holders doesn't go quite high enough??

It might mean that. Then again it might not. Is the clip the clip itself--or is the whole thing (ammo included) considered the clip? Who knows?

It sounds like Berryville has created another (a) unclear and ambiguous mess, or ( a ridiculous and arbitrary rule which will create more needless expense as shooters buy the new "studs" that someone is bound to manufacture and market.

This continues to be a bad deal.

[redmist10]

Deep breaths, Carmoney, deep breaths.

I've been on a ventilator for two weeks . Just gather your thoughts as coherently as possible and send a polite Email to Bill, Joyce, or IDPA HQ.

It might take a little while for them to sift through 12,000 Emails but they will get back to you. Bill might even call you himself.

If they can help me they can help you clarify things.

[Bill Nesbitt]

I just checked my CCW moon clip carriers. A few strokes with a file on the fins will solve the problem if your post doesn't stick up far enough. It took me about 2 minutes to fix one. This is not a problem.

Bill Nesbitt

[rwmagnus]

I just checked my CCW moon clip carriers. A few strokes with a file on the fins will solve the problem if your post doesn't stick up far enough. It took me about 2 minutes to fix one. This is not a problem.

Bill Nesbitt

That is until they go back to the old rules ugh I mean the second rule book ugh no the one after that yea the green book pre 1/6/05....

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just kidding. And yes a file or belt sander does the trick.

[Carmoney]

I have been corresponding with IDPA headquarters about this from day one, and I assure you ALL of that communication has been constructive and polite.

Today, though, I am thoroughly frustrated, and I'll tell you why. I sent the following email to Joyce and Bill back on Jan. 20:

OK, here's my situation: I sent in my registration for SSR at the Illinois State Championship, to be held 5/15/05 in Havana (so the new rules--whatever they may be--will be in effect by then). The only time I have ever shot a classifier (in a match or in practice) was last summer in Ohio--shot a 104.09 with my S&W 646 and moonclips.

I may get a chance to shoot another classifier before the Illinois match, but it's not a sure thing. If I do get the chance to re-classify, I need to figure out which class I need to shoot.

The revised new rulebook currently says: "NOTE: Any shooter who obtained their current SSR classification using a full moon clip revolver must re-classify as an ESR shooter."

But that can be read a couple different ways....

So--is my EX class still valid for SSR? Or am I now considered a MA in SSR, since the 104.09 would now fall within the MA range, under the new rules?

Or--am I now automatically an EX in ESR?

Or--am I currently unclassed and need to start completely over for both SSR and ESR?

Thanks in advance for any guidance you can give me.

Mike Carmoney

A21248

The new book is out, the problem is still there. I have received no response. Meanwhile, many of us are waiting for the answer to this question. For those of you who say big deal, just go shoot a classifier in both classes and quit worrying about it, I guess I need to explain that I have NEVER seen a classifier conducted in my home state. I literally had to drive to Ohio last year to get classified so I could participate in a state match. The IDPA clubs here (three or four going early last year) have been dying on the vine. And from what I'm hearing, all this rulebook hassle is the final straw--these clubs will just run "tactical matches" and be done with any sort of formal afiliation that seems to cause nothing but problems.

I am gratified to see some of the problems resolved. But it's still a mess. And one thing is for sure--we have learned an awful lot about IDPA and the shooters who remain blindly loyal to that particular discipline.

Or so it seems to me.

Mike

[rhino]

No slidelock reloads in the open? What do you do if you're shooting on the move and you run dry?

[txaggie]

rhino - the way I see that is one of two things:

1. don't run dry in the open, tac load or rwr before going into the open

2. get to cover, reload and then reengage the targets

Of course both of these options are going to depend on the COF. Check my other post about the text differences, but the part about no uncovered slide lock reloads was purposely left out.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Revision 2

Not in book

Revision 3

A general rule of thumb is that the shooter will have to lean out of

cover more for each target he engages (slicing the pie). The

distance between the threat targets will determine how much more

the shooter must poke out in order to engage the targets. A shooter

who engages more than one target from the same position has not

been using cover properly.

When possible, having the scorekeeper stand directly behind the

competitor (after the gun is drawn) will assist the SO in

determining if 50% exposure was maintained. However, in most

instances, the safety officer can position himself so both the

shooter’s gun and relationship to the targets can both be observed.

Safety Officers who observe a shooter not using cover properly

should shout the command “COVER”. The shooter should

immediately correct his use of cover. IDPA understands many

shooters are often too fast in engaging targets for the SO to be able

to warn the shooter in time. (Also maybe a bit to fast for the SO to properly see what happened) Therefore, if the Safety Officer did

not have the time or opportunity to yell “COVER” before the

shooter engaged targets without using cover properly, the shooter

still earns a procedural error.

Let me be the first to predict that this will be used to "penalize" those who are too fast for some people.

[Mayonaise]

- it looks like the Failure-to-Neutralize penalty has been completely changed.  Now, any target without at least one -1 zone hit is going to score FTN. That's -1 zone or better, I assume...if you take it literally you can't have two -0 hits and get away from the FTN...who proofreads this stuff!?

They always said that they wanted to do away with people having to figure out how many points were on a target.

Ted

That's interesting. So now 2 or more -3's only will incur an FTN. I'm also curious about the dissappearance of PAR time scoring, not that many people use it but we have a new shoot house going up at the range where it's useful. I assume it's still ok to use.

[redmist10]

Some good points.....

First, Mike, I think you'll be SSR EX with your old classification and unclassified as ESR (which means you shoot as a master until classified - not a big deal really). I actually won SSR at that match once as a SS so you will do fine (blind hog...acorn..what?). Although Marmot452 will be gunning for you and anyone else shooting revolver to uphold our clan honor. You'll know him by the trail of spent moonclips.... (FYI, practice shooting targets with T-shirts and take that young man with you.) There are some good SSR (and now ESR) shooters over there if they show up you'll be in good company and you should do quite well. I have my daughters first birthday that weekend or I'd be there...will be there in the fall before the Nationals (Sept. 19th).

if the Safety Officer did

not have the time or opportunity to yell “COVER” before the

shooter engaged targets without using cover properly, the shooter

still earns a procedural error

This one stems straight from the 2002 IDPA Nationals where a very well known (and possibly the best) 1911 shooter received a procedural for hanging out from behind cover while engaging a target between two barrels - the stage after the ambulance stage with the clothes on a line. The shooter indeed shot while standing in the open....but was pretty upset with Bill W. and stayed upset for about three hours or more. The SO couldn't warn the shooter before the incident so the Procedural stood. In truth, Bill explained that "yelling cover is a courtesy" and that the penalty was justified and it was...I have it on tape but you'll never see it because I was directly behind the shooter and filming the stage. It is no different than the shooter not hearing the command because they have good ear muffs and/or bad hearing....penalties are earned, know the rules and abide by them and you will be fine.

In the case of slide lock reloads in the open I believe HQ will tell you that you may reload but you need to be behind cover before engaging (sort of the same principle described as "you should seek cover or attempt to flee before being forced to engage a target" scenario). You would not readily stand in the open if someone is shooting at you....loaded or not. Stage design should prevent this from occurring. Shoot a revolver and you'll know what to do when you run dry

[Glock2234]

I'm also curious about the dissappearance of PAR time scoring, not that many people use it but we have a new shoot house going up at the range where it's useful.  I assume it's still ok to use.

If it isn't in the book . . . . .

[Northern Xtreme]

Can anyone tell me what kind of speedloader carrier the new rule book is showing as OK? It is the one holding the comp 3 speedloaders.

Thanks,

Paul

[Clay1]

Carmoney, don't know where you are in IL but there is a Classifier on Feb 5th in Wisconsin. Check out this link: http://wisconsinidpa.com/calendar.htm

Just trying to help.

[pisgahrifle]

Forgive me, but I've got to put on my "tactical tool" hat for a minute...

there we go.

OK, so, in this most "real-world" of all shooting sports, you get a FTN penalty for 2 -3s. I'd buy that in the periphreal areas of the target, but what about that big, thick -3 portion right below the -1 area? Even Ayoob's advocated the pelvic shot as being a viable one shot stopper, if not more of one than the Mozambique because of the difficulty in landing the head shot. And if I recall right, the zipper drill is taught these days as much in law enforcement as the Mozambique is. 'Course, these folk have to be about as practical as it gets.....

WHEW! I got that hat pulled off just in time. I almost had a sudden urge to go buy a matching 5.11 ensemble. Forget that ever happened...