Chokes for 3Gun

[kurtm]

Uh...hem....Mark, S.O.F. matches were ALWAYS buckshot. Smallest shot size allowed was #4 buck. They never allowed Birdshot and were known to cut shells a part to check. The match to blame for letting Birdshot creep into the game was SMM3G. They felt that in general using bird would save a bunch of money, and for what we were using it on depicted buck well enough. Never in the mid 90s would anyone have imagined that "tactical combat dove hunters" would want to change the sport to include aerial targets.

On another note, there still are enough "New shooters" that don't have a shotgun with a choke to make me think that targets should be doable with that set up, just to be fair. The real dichotomy here is we have a thread on here about slugs only being out to 75 yards or so, and yet we want falling plates out past 30-40 yards for shot. We want sniper type carbine shots out to 600, we want pistol out to 80 or so we want sniper shot targets, yet we really don't like to shoot slugs very far.....what up???

[MarkCO]

Kurt, no argument at all about your first paragraph, was the point I was trying to convey.

I've "borrowed" many concepts from you and Trapr (and a bunch of others) related to stage design that I have folded into the matches I run, even the stages I design for the Rimfire Challenge match. Based on the feedback of the shooters at Noveske, you might be on to something.

If you take 10 minutes to watch one of the match videos from Noveske, I think you will see that my target presentations fall in line with what you and Trapr generally have recommended...sans the 200 yard Metal-Mans off a stack of tires.

Sorry GaGunner, we have drifted your thread into the weeds as is prone to happen when squirrels are around.

[kurtm]

My point was S.O.F. was always buckshot, not just the first one, then I threw in a little history tid bit. Wasn't arguing with you Mark, you were spot on! Nor was I saying anything about anyones target presentation. I was just pointing out that there are still some guns that don't have chokes and can't be choked, usually wielded by New shooter so in order to be fair we ought to make sure shotgun targets can be over come with a cylinder choke.

I see from several posts that that idea is not agreed with, so what do the nay sayers propose? Are folks saying that shotgun targets, at minimum, requier an I.C. or how about a L.M.? Do we proof shotgun stages with separate chokes for each stage? Do we just let the shooter decide what to shoot in the way of chokes, and when it doesn't fall we say it should have or calibrate with a weak 9mm realizing that it is fairly easy to hit a mini -popper at 50 with a 9mm but a real trial to get it with birdshot , do we calibrate with a full choke because that is the most constrictive and since it was up to the shooter, he should have made a better choice?

For the record I am for the cylinder bore rule! I won't ask a philosophical question without telling you guys right up front what I think, but I am now interested in the responses.

Edited September 25, 2014 by kurtm

[MarkCO]

I think it depends on the match and how it is marketed. If I went to the Nordic SG Challenge and I could shoot everything with an IC, 1 ounce 1200 fps scattergun (you can't BTW), I might be disappointed. If OTOH, I went to a match billed as a ProAm, Amatuer, Junior and I could not take everything out with an IC, I would say that was wrong.

MDs/RMs do silly things, that won't change as long as there are people willing to plunk down $$$ at outlaw matches doing silly things. At local matches, I think I have a responsibility to present options our shooters might see at some of the majors, even if we do not agree with them. FWIW, Mike and I are discussing an amateur division, less cost, 4+1 in the gun, 2 boxes of birdshot max, for our local matches. The other two stages will have some flippers, fliers, slugs, select load etc for those that travel to practice silly stuff with the shotgun.

I don't mind being pushed as long as it is a shooting challenge and the silly parameters, if any, are known before I sign up.

[Jadeslade]

I would go to a SOF rules match. They didn't have Flite Control buckshot, not sure some targets would stand up to 200 shooters pounding them with Flite Control. I like the IPSC rules. I am not sure if that is the same as cylinder bore rule, I think it is. I can see now where Kurt got the LM silver soldered ideas from. No need to change chokes, can shoot slugs, known patterns. A lot of us use IC most of the time and choke up to Mod when necessary, supplemented with heavy shot when needed.

The Noveske Match last year was pretty much a perfect match. I thought the shotgun stuff was awesome-diffilcult angles, lots of targets, moving targets, buckshot and slug and bird stage all-in-one, so whatever you are doing Mark, keep doing it. There were no issues with anything, I don't think.

I am not sure why the SOF would not allow birdshot-is it because it wasn't used for duty guns?

[kurtm]

Mark this year several folks DID indeed use 1 ounce at 1200 with an I.C. at Nordic...and finished with knocking down all targets so it can be done.....BUT that is not the question!!! The question is if you don't think everything should be calibrated with a cylinder choke WHAT SHOULD IT BE DONE WITH? So far we have talked about all sorts of stuff, but what I asked was about calibration....since you disagreed with the cylinded choke idea...." thats one opinion, many disagree" as you said. So did others......SO????

Edited September 25, 2014 by kurtm

[P.E. Kelley]

This is good stuff...you guys have me thinking.

I would have expected an all shotgun event to calibrated with...a shotgun and a pistol match with...a pistol. I "defaulted" to USPSA

think by using the 9mm in the shotgun choke article.

I do wonder what the rules are with cylinder choke and the setting of shoot/no shoot targets in close proximity. Where do you aim for calibration?

If you aim on and take the no shoot too was is set too close? If not what is the expectation for the new guy (in the old days with cylinder bore guns) to "miss" the no shoot?

[Moltke]

I have been told by many here that its a good thing there are no rules, a lack of commonality among matches, and the unruly free-for-all aspect of 3 Gun adds to the variety and makes it "good". Major match directors do what they want and they know best so we're all to trust them. So whats this talk about calibration standards or reasonable target presentations?

[MarkCO]

Steel sharpens steel and honest discourse, with an open mind leads to improvement...solutions if you will. I have often told people who work for me, and my close friends...if you are going to bitch about something, you better have thought of a solution before you open your mouth.

If PK is thinking, then it should be obvious he is looking for a solution. Kurt has offered a solution.

I really have no issue with 9mm minor inside 18 yards for calibration. But I also put round plates out at 25+ yards for buckshot, and no, IC birdshot would not take them over, so I don't think just IC birdshot is appropriate. Could I write a general outline based on target sizes, distance and load? Sure, but that would not be "fair" to the new guy with an 18" pump, Cylinder bore and a Wally world 100 pak. Thus, why my answer went to how the match is marketed. I had my stages published 2 months before the match and told the competitors exactly what to expect, then made it just a tad easier. I honestly did for my shooters what I would like other matches to do. I have said, I copy the best of what I have seen from Cramblit, the Johnsons, RNT matches, Horner, Anderson, Houck, etc. If others want to copy, the information is out there as to what shooters do and do not like and how to be safe, while fair and still have competition.

[GaGunner]

Thanks everyone for our thoughts on chokes. It is appreciated and I really major shooters giving me their thoughts. I also appreciate the worm can of thoughts about how shotgun targets should be set and calibrated. Being new to 3 gun and a 3 Gun Nation member, I have just gone with the flow of what every match I have been at. I like the idea that you could face any thing from multiple steel to flying clays. That challenge is what got me to thinking about expanding my choke selection. So, please keep the discussion going.

[kurtm]

GaGunner, back in 1998 I silver soldered a L.M. choke into my M1 Benelli. The only specialty ammo I ever ran was spreaders but I quit those in 2003. All I use is Federal 11/8 ounce 8 shot at 1235fps/3 DRAM eq. I have never had any trouble at any match knocking stuff down/ avoiding no shoots. You can play with chokes all you want, but I feel learning the gun is better than screw in gadgets. So far that has help win two Nationals and a World Championship.

[bigbrowndog]

Mark, I think you missed MY point, All targets can be knocked over with Cyl bore, "from the closest place available to the shooter" it may not be in the shooters best interest to shoot the target from the closest place available, they may have to get 3-7 yards closer, or 3-5 steps off to the side for a no shoot. But the target CAN be knocked over w Cyl bore, the fun in course design is trying to get people to screw in a tighter choke because of one or two targets and then be disadvantaged for the rest of the COF. As Kurt said, learn your gun and what it can do, instead of trying to get a screw in gadget to make up for your inabilities, or lack of practice.

Pat, even with a no shoot if the target can safely be shot and taken over without knocking over the no shoot then that target presentation is deemed "doable w cyl bore" regardless of whether you have to "aim" off of the target to get it to fall. Kurt and I will always "calibrate" shotgun targets w cyl bore, 1oz loads, at 1200fps or so, and we always try and use "cheap" ammo. This means that the beginner that shops at wally world and buys bulk box 100rd boxes and shoots whatever shotgun they can come up with will ALWAYS have a gun/ammo combination that will work on the targets presented. Now the shooter may not be up to the challenge, but their equipment will. At the Nordic SG match, much chatter was in the air about the "heavy" metal tubes on one stage, and how "you'll need Mod or tighter to get them to fall",......BS!!! Every target fell to IC, but you had to be on the target and center your pattern on the target, or you had to get close. That stage was an excellent use of "mind phuck" if you choked down you had to go slower and aim, if you stuck with an IC/LM you had to slow down and aim, to keep your pattern centered, but with the tighter choke you could do it from further away and save steps. That was an excellent stage, whether by design or chance it was a great test of you and your equipment.

All this talk about growing the sport, and trying to get new shooters interested but we want to make target presentations so difficult that you need uber special equipment to be able to get hits???????? It should always be about the shooter not the target presentation or equipment.

Trapr

[Willz]

I'm going to be pattern testing chokes this coming week with my Versa Max for an upcoming match in Nov.

The last all shotgun match I shot in May was with a Win 1200 pump and I shot the entire match with LM after reading Mr. Kelley's article.

I believe the Fed Flight Control buck I was using in May was opening up too fast due to the LM choke I was using, preventing the Flight Control cup from doing its job. I'm really not sure. Maybe I'm just a lousy shot.

Also I want to see the effect of cylinder bore choke on the Fiocchi slugs I shoot vs the LM choke I used for the entire match in May.

LM was good for 10 of the 12 stages. The exceptions being an all buck stage with the FC buck and an all clay target stage where many shooters used a full choke for some long shots.

I'm also having an issue with slugs shooting very high and right with the VM. I have the XS rear blade sight as far left as it will go and still give the set screw some purchase just to get slugs somewhat centered. I'm really not happy about that.

I'm hoping a different choke will correct this or at least improve it.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Willz

[Mad Doc]

Same issue here with the versamax and slugs they shoot very high and right, other than moving the rear sight all the way to the left the only other solution I found is to aim low and left at slug targets over 50 yards. I use an improved cylinder choke and rio slugs

[Stlhead]

I will offer what little I have to what the Giants of our sport have posted so far. When I set a stage I calibrate the steel that could be shot with a shotgun, to fall or score with 1oz 1200fps loads from my official test M2 with an IC choke. When I first began in the sport I took the advice of a well seasoned shooter and used a LM for everything, but after a few years of literaly sending steel targets over the berm, I tried a IC and everything has fallen just as well. I have not taken the IC out for YEARS. I am not saying that an IC will work for everyone, just that in my guns, with my ammo it provides all the patter I need.

I am not sure who said it first, but I repeat it often. Chokes change your pattern by inches, when we miss a target with the shotgun it is most often by feet. Our game should really be about the shooting, not the widgets. I think often the search for the perfect choke is little more than a fools errand. Find what works for you, then work on getting better with it.

[GaGunner]

Again thanks for all the replies: I AM NOT buying any new chokes for a while, and possibly never. I changed the drop on my Super Nova to raise the pattern. Before the main shot charge, with a 6:00 hold, was low. I like 6:00 holds with long guns. The new drop now puts the main shot pattern about 50% above and below the point of aim, depending on distance. At close range it is a true 6:00 hold.

I also re-checked my patterns and confirmed at 25 yards my IC pattern is getting ragged with clay size holes on the edges. It will still break a clay or put steel down, but I am at the limit of this choke. If a clay or steel is past 25 yards, I might have to change to the Mod, but only after a lot of thought. My IC is clearly more accurate with slugs and it will be the standard choke I run for now.

After shooting my last match, I realized chokes are not the limiting factory in my shotgun game. They are sufficient for my current skill level. I would be better served by using my range time to practice my shotgun shooting vs patterning a new choke.

[Les Snyder]

a gentleman with the initials of KM suggested a light modified quite a few years ago (probably the inaugural Ft Benning match)... I did not silver solder mine, but rather used Loctite...it is still there....regards

[BOOM]

Also followed Kurts and Pat's advice, went with LM choke...NO PROBLEM O

[eddiegunks]

Ok. How does choke choice affect slugs?

I just bought a vinci.....no sights like my SLP. Any suggestions for choosing which drop to tty and what choke results i should expect?

It seems to be shooting slugs high using the IC.

Thanks

[Moltke]

Bench your gun and test it is the only way to truly know what its doing

[CJW]

Ok. How does choke choice affect slugs?

Depends...

On my M2, not much at all. I zeroed at 50 yards with a Light Mod choke (since that is what I shoot 80%+ of the time), but I also verified with Skeet and Light Full (the other two chokes I use with any regularity) and saw basically no difference at 50 yards. In another shotgun, with other chokes, there might be variance in Point of Impact at that distance, so you have to just test it out.

[Les Snyder]

with a 10/22 flip up sight milled into the rail, and a HiViz Flashpoint with triangular light pipes to adjust POA to POI, my 21" M1 will shoot 3" five shot 60yd groups with 7/8oz Fiocchi Aero and 1 oz Federal Premium low recoil slugs

[TonytheTiger]

That's impressive. You sir, take slug shooting to the next level.