Nationals Stage 22 - Do you have to activate the moving hardcover?

[MarkCO]

I think stacked poppers are just a series of appearing targets (2.1.8.5) says they must be obscured till activated it does not give any further guidance on what constitutes activation therefore shooting the popper ahead of it would be fine, the same way shooting a popper down activates any other appearing target (swinger, max trap, drop turner, etc).

Reasonable.

[JAFO]

A somewhat related question regarding popper calibration -

Suppose a popper was declared disappearing through the use of hardcover that hides the popper at rest, but the minimum 50% (or more) of the calibration zone was available before it disappeared. The shooter hits the popper when it was available, but it does not fall. Can he call for a calibration?

If he does, does the RM move the hardcover out of the way (assuming it is not connected in some way to the target)? App C1 doesn't say the RM has to perform the calibration as the stage stands at the end of the run, just that the popper in question cannot be touched or moved prior to the test shot.

Edited September 16, 2014 by JAFO

[motosapiens]

A somewhat related question regarding popper calibration -

Suppose a popper was declared disappearing through the use of hardcover that hides the popper at rest, but the minimum 50% (or more) of the calibration zone was available before it disappeared. The shooter hits the popper when it was available, but it does not fall. Can he call for a calibration?

If he does, does the RM move the hardcover out of the way (assuming it is not connected in some way to the target)? App C1 doesn't say the RM has to perform the calibration as the stage stands at the end of the run, just that the popper in question cannot be touched or moved prior to the test shot.

I can't think of any reason you couldn't move the hardcover. It doesn't have any effect on the calibration.

Usually the whole rest of the stage gets reset before the RM gets there anyway.

[shred]

As far as an "Arb", there is no spirit of the rules available to them. They must cite supporting rule(s) in their decision(s).

11.1.9 Arbitration Committee's Duty - The Arbitration Committee is bound to

observe and apply the current USPSA Rules and to deliver a decision

consistent with those rules. Where rules require interpretation or where

an incident is not specifically covered by the rules, the Arbitration

Committee will use their best judgment consistent with the intent of the

rules. The Committee must confer with the MD before changing or

removing a course of fire from the match.

I've been on Nationals Arbitration Committees. The intent of the rules comes up if there's not a cut-and-dried rule covering it.

This case seems to me like one requiring interpretation and/or not specifically covered.

[MarkCO]

As far as an "Arb", there is no spirit of the rules available to them. They must cite supporting rule(s) in their decision(s).

11.1.9 Arbitration Committee's Duty - The Arbitration Committee is bound to

observe and apply the current USPSA Rules and to deliver a decision

consistent with those rules. Where rules require interpretation or where

an incident is not specifically covered by the rules, the Arbitration

Committee will use their best judgment consistent with the intent of the

rules. The Committee must confer with the MD before changing or

removing a course of fire from the match.

I've been on Nationals Arbitration Committees. The intent of the rules comes up if there's not a cut-and-dried rule covering it.

This case seems to me like one requiring interpretation and/or not specifically covered.

I think you would find that the directions to the Arb committee have changed since then.

[Thomas H]

As far as an "Arb", there is no spirit of the rules available to them. They must cite supporting rule(s) in their decision(s).

11.1.9 Arbitration Committee's Duty - The Arbitration Committee is bound to

observe and apply the current USPSA Rules and to deliver a decision

consistent with those rules. Where rules require interpretation or where

an incident is not specifically covered by the rules, the Arbitration

Committee will use their best judgment consistent with the intent of the

rules. The Committee must confer with the MD before changing or

removing a course of fire from the match.

I've been on Nationals Arbitration Committees. The intent of the rules comes up if there's not a cut-and-dried rule covering it.

This case seems to me like one requiring interpretation and/or not specifically covered.

I think you would find that the directions to the Arb committee have changed since then.

Considering that is a quote from the current rulebook, whether or not the directions have changed, that is certainly the rule.

[beltjones]

As far as an "Arb", there is no spirit of the rules available to them. They must cite supporting rule(s) in their decision(s).

11.1.9 Arbitration Committee's Duty - The Arbitration Committee is bound to

observe and apply the current USPSA Rules and to deliver a decision

consistent with those rules. Where rules require interpretation or where

an incident is not specifically covered by the rules, the Arbitration

Committee will use their best judgment consistent with the intent of the

rules. The Committee must confer with the MD before changing or

removing a course of fire from the match.

I've been on Nationals Arbitration Committees. The intent of the rules comes up if there's not a cut-and-dried rule covering it.

This case seems to me like one requiring interpretation and/or not specifically covered.

I think you would find that the directions to the Arb committee have changed since then.

Please post the instructions then so I can be outraged.

[terrydoc]

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

How does this apply to the Stage at hand? Hard cover is not a target.

[motosapiens]

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates

the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

How does this apply to the Stage at hand? Hard cover is not a target.

If you're a range-lawyer trying to get the stage thrown out, you could certainly argue that this is yet one more thing that is not perfectly clearly spelled out in the rulebook, and that we shouldn't be allowed to ever do anything that is not explicitly and clearly spelled out in the rulebook. For example, we shouldn't be allowed to use moving no-shoots or moving hard-cover unless it is explicitly allowed. I think that is silly.

OTOH, if you're a reasonable person, you would see that 9.9.3 was apparently broadened to make sure that even unreasonable people understand it applies to instances where the targets are stationary, but they are covered by something that exposes them temporarily. The bolded part expands the rule to include a particular type of common disappearing target, but I don't see anything that would lead me to believe that the single example is intended to be an exhaustive and complete list, or that the rule is intended to exclude any particular type of moving or disappearing target.

Based on 9.9.3 (and others), and in the absence of any clear intention to exclude the type of target in this stage, I think a reasonable person would conclude that the targets will be scored as disappearing, meaning if you knock down the activator popper, then any further misses are NPM. OTOH, if you skip the activator, then you get the FTE's and misses for each target. Does it make any meaningful difference whether it's a moving no-shoot or a moving hardcover? I don't think so.

Of course that's only my opinion. If the stage designer and MD and NROI have something else in mind, then I am quite confident they will the rules to back it up to my satisfaction, and as long as everyone shoots the same stage, I'm not going to worry about it..... unless all the other forums are slow and I just feel like arguing.... which is quite likely, now that I think about it.

Edited September 16, 2014 by motosapiens

[terrydoc]

Not range lawyering at all, I don't shoot USPSA I shoot IPSC in Australia so I don't have a horse in the race . I'm just trying to get the answer the same as everyone else. But again in your comment in regards to 9.9.3 you are referring to moving or disappearing targets not moving hard cover.

I understand the concept of a no-shoot moving in to place over a target and covering it at rest and agree that 9.9.3 applies, the issue I have is the HC and it's scoring effect on the stage.

Edited September 17, 2014 by terrydoc

[OUshooter]

So for the sake of the discussion:

1. PP 2-4 are not considered disappearing
2. PP 2-4 can only be seen/engaged from center port
3. The competitor engages left paper, right paper then PP1
4. The competitors handgun malfunctions and 2min elapse

In that scenario the PP would be scored as 1 Procedural for FTE and 1 for a Mike? Granted if a competitor goes to 120sec on a stage they aren't winning the new Corvette Stingray. I'm asking merely from a scoring standpoint.

I still think it's a legal stage, not one I would ever run, but legal because I would consider PP2-4 as "disappearing". Which is interesting because everyone will just shoot PP1 and call it good. The time it would take to clear the other 3 PP and wait on the swinging HC aren't worth the points. Which makes one wonder if that was the "intent" of the stage designer? Why would a SD ever include that many points that are just there for fun?

Also, FYI I've personally shot an NROI approved stage that was "legal" and inherently unsafe, that's my opinion but this being America well you know the rest.

But then again the final command is: "The range is clear", not "The range is safe".

Edited September 17, 2014 by OUshooter

[grapemeister]

Oushooter,

I don't understand. Given all the stipulations for your scenario, why wouldn't the rest of the poppers be mikes, and FTE's? You said "the PP" would be scored as a mike and FTE. Did you mean that to be plural and to include the rest of the poppers.

Don't mean this to be an argument, just a possible learning opportunity.

[OUshooter]

Oushooter,

I don't understand. Given all the stipulations for your scenario, why wouldn't the rest of the poppers be mikes, and FTE's? You said "the PP" would be scored as a mike and FTE. Did you mean that to be plural and to include the rest of the poppers.

Don't mean this to be an argument, just a possible learning opportunity.

Right given those constraints. It would be 1 FTE and 1 Mike per PP left standing. Where I was going was what if a competitor had a MF, and cleared it in say 90sec, but the HC had already come to rest blocking any remaining PP? Would they be penalized for PP left standing? Seems unfair to give out procedurals for not being able to complete the COF, due to stage design.

[terrydoc]

thats where the designer/builders need to put in a manual activator ie: a rope

[grapemeister]

To Oushooter,

For some reason I'm not able to quote you directly. Anyhow, in my opinion, which I'm sure is correct, if the poppers aren't visible when the hardcover comes to rest, and there is no opportunity to engage the poppers from any other location, then it would be no penalty mikes.

The only rule I know of which comes the closest to backing my opinion is rule 9.9.1 and 9.9.2. Of course, those rules make no mention of moving hardcover, but I don't see what difference it would make, moving hardcover, or moving scoring targets., 9.9.2 could apply to both.

If a shooter has a gun malfunction which prevents the shooter from continuing the course of fire and engaging any available targets, it's mikes and FTE's. In this case, if the course of fire is ended because of a gun malfunction, and at the time the poopers are still available to engage, it would be mikes and FTE's

Edit: After further thought, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about the hardcover having to stop before the end of the course of fire to not get mikes and FTE's. In other words, it doesn't matter when the targets disappear, before or after the course of fire has ended, it would still be no-penalty mikes.

Edited September 17, 2014 by grapemeister

[grapemeister]

Going strictly by the written stage description, and assuming the poppers aren't available from any other location, it would be very interesting to see how people would shoot the stage.

Of course, we know the actual stage will be different, but as given so far, I think I would engage the 1st popper as soon as possible, engage the paper, and then just stand there and wait for the hardcover to stop moving. When it stops moving, then I would unload and show clear. Can anyone think of a rule that would prevent me from doing that, or penalize me for doing that, no matter how long it takes for the hardcover to stop moving?

Edit: Actually, I wouldn't have to wait until the hardcover stopped, if I'm not mistaken. It would still be no penalty mikes since the targets are disappearing, eventually. I think I'm right about that.

Edited September 17, 2014 by grapemeister

[Ken N.]

There will be no moving hardcover on stage 22. I'd like to say it's because we felt scoring as NPMs would cause people to not shoot the poppers, or some other fancy rule thing, but the reality is that MTG's (moving target guy) Dad passed away, and we just didn't get to build the thing. We had another big custom mover that took up remaining time, and we focused on that.

BTW: Our orignal intention was to build it so that it wouldn't block the hole at rest. I'd expect to see it at Hard as Hell Multigun, or the Berry's Steel Open next year.

Ken N.
M.D.

[terrydoc]

Well that's just put an end to 5 pages of guff then. Sorry for you loss

[motosapiens]

My condolences to MTG's family.

I sort of suspected that ken and troy would have the situation better in hand than us internet know-it-alls.

[remoandiris]

I sort of suspected that ken and troy would have the situation better in hand than us internet know-it-alls.

LOL!!! Good one!!

[racerba]

Going strictly by the written stage description, and assuming the poppers aren't available from any other location, it would be very interesting to see how people would shoot the stage.

Depending on the timing of the hard cover. If the hardcover is fast and doesn't allow that much time to shoot through the hole, I would rather skipped the other 4 steel and continue on. If there was time to shoot multiple shots before the hard cover pass by the hole, I would shoot the rest of the steel. 20 points vs. 5 seconds.......

Edited September 17, 2014 by racerba

[shred]

I've been on Nationals Arbitration Committees. The intent of the rules comes up if there's not a cut-and-dried rule covering it.

This case seems to me like one requiring interpretation and/or not specifically covered.

I think you would find that the directions to the Arb committee have changed since then.

I think it was two years ago maybe. What's changed?

[ac4wordplay]

Although this thread now has nothing to do with a specific stage at Nationals, the issue/s being discussed are worthy of a better/clearer understanding and some excellent questions have been raised. I hope the discussion continues, and it isn't discarded simply because the stage at Nationals has been changed.

[CHA-LEE]

There will be no moving hardcover on stage 22. I'd like to say it's because we felt scoring as NPMs would cause people to not shoot the poppers, or some other fancy rule thing, but the reality is that MTG's (moving target guy) Dad passed away, and we just didn't get to build the thing. We had another big custom mover that took up remaining time, and we focused on that.

BTW: Our orignal intention was to build it so that it wouldn't block the hole at rest. I'd expect to see it at Hard as Hell Multigun, or the Berry's Steel Open next year.

Ken N.

M.D.

This is exactly what I expected and figured would happen when I mentioned it on post #15. There is no point in trying to figure out a stage plan or even if the stage is legal before the match even starts with the WSB as your only data point. You need to wait until the stage is actually setup so you can physically inspect it and the "Official" WSB is available to review. Otherwise all you do is prejudge what to expect or come up with an invalid strategy for solving the stage. I like to look at WSB's before I go to a match, but I have learned that more often than not what physically gets constructed verses what is shown on the WSB don't often match.

Edited September 18, 2014 by CHA-LEE