Info on Rimfire Open gear, part 1 - Guns

[Roamer]

Guys. NO FLAME WARS. Both of you have valid positions. Present them, back them up with logic and facts, and LET IT GO. Keep emotion out of it. We're here to learn and help each other, not snipe, amiright?

I think it's valid to say that how useful a comp is would depend on how the gun itself is set up. The lighter the gun is - especially up top and up front - the more effective a comp will be. Somebody shooting a Mark II with a ultralight Volquartsen barrel is going to have a very different opinion about a comp's usefulness than someone shooting a tuned S&W 41. Fair statement?

As for the pros using 1911 22 conversions, I suspect they set their guns up to mirror what their primary weapon is like - because for them the .22 is most valuable as a training tool, and that means making the .22 as similar to the primary as possible. Steel Challenge is one match, and these guys are looking at competing at more matches than that every month. Of course, SC is the most fun.

[joninwv]

We have been very impressed with the reliability of my son's S&W M&P 22 Pistol. Having shot steel challenge matches with rimfires weekly, you get a chance to see what does and does not work reliably. Most people at our local shoots use out of the box guns, and many of them have issues. Including the Rugers and Buckmarks.

I would put the newest batch of guns such as the Ruger SR22, S&W M&P 22, etc at least as good as the old standbys in terms of reliability. Its also easy to add such things as compensators because many of them have threaded barrels from the factory.

Just put a FastFire III on the M&P 22 using a standard M&P rear sight mount, and even with the extra weight of the sight + mount on the slide, it still cycles fine.

Jon

Edited September 23, 2014 by joninwv

[T Bacus]

Compensators on rimfire steel guns are not about reducing recoil for fast follow-up shots. They are about cleanliness of dot movement during recoil.

[Jaxshooter]

I own 4 of the guns listed. I prefer the weight, reliability and accuracy of my Model 41. It is one of the older models that has been reworked and tuned by Clark's. It is a 5" gun with the Clark STC barrel. Next would be my Marvel Unit 1 Conversion on a Caspian Single Stack frame that was built for the Marvel Unit. I have found the conversions to be reliable using the single stack magazines instead of the double stacks. Next is the Buckmark with a TacSol barrel followed by the Ruger.

[hornetx40]

Compensators on rimfire steel guns are not about reducing recoil for fast follow-up shots. They are about cleanliness of dot movement during recoil.

I agree. That is the sole reason I put mine back on. I shoot the same speed with or without.

[The Captain]

I shoot a Volquartsen 22/45 Scorpion. I took the comp off as I believe it is faster transitioning between the steel as the gun is lighter which means more than any reduced muzzel flip from the compensator. I shoot either CCI standard velocity , SK, or Wolf and my gun runs flawlessly. I use a C-more RTS2 red dot which is light and keeps the dot low for more of a regular sight view. I usually finish in the top 3 overall. Previously I shot a Kimber 22 with a C-more sight. It was good also but not as fast as the Volquartsen. This combination has helped me beat shooters that are much better than I am.

[photoracer]

I engaged in a comp test a few years ago while heavily into the RimfireCentral forum. I was donated several comps for the test. One thing I can say is if you use SV/match ammo the use of a comp is somewhat optional. But anything faster than that a good comp will make a difference. I tested ammo upto and including Stingers because several pros told me they used to use those a lot in the old days. Rational being the faster the ammo the quicker the run. Not 100% on that. But Stingers do gas a comp better. We did dusk videos to see how much gas came out of the comps and surprisingly a lot did (faster the better). Think of Stingers and Velocitors as rimfire Major and you get the idea.

I use a Buckmark (or 2) as my raceguns. Mainly because I had one in the safe when I decided to start speed shooting. My open gun once went 49 straight matches with no failures over an 18 month period (2011-2012). Earlier this year it went to cr*p finally. But replacing the mainspring got it back to 100%. I guess 50k rounds is about a limit. I can say that either a Ruger or a Browning will do fine. A Browning will cost less to mod. I have won Rugers while shooting a Buckmark but I have never won a Buckmark while shooting a Ruger. And I have a few shooters I know who have done the same thing. My Buckmark looks even more custom than Nimitz, except he has a better paint job than mine. My guns tend to be all stealth black.

Same with the rimfire rifle division. Its basically a 2 horse race between the Ruger 10/22 and the S&W 15-22 with some AR-22s thrown in for good measure. I have one of each (3). All are pretty reliable with a slight edge given to the 15-22. Still in the 2012 Ruger Rimfire World Championship I switched from my 15-22 to an AR .22 for the second day. Just had a feeling.

Edited October 1, 2014 by photoracer

[photoracer]

Compensators on rimfire steel guns are not about reducing recoil for fast follow-up shots. They are about cleanliness of dot movement during recoil.

You tell'em Tim. That is by far the biggest thing I got out of my comp test. I wanted to find which comp(s) allowed the dot to stay in the window of the C-More and which if any did not.

[Mike in Salem]

My open .22 steel pistol is an older (80's or 90's) Ruger Mk II with the following. Tacsol 6" upper with Tandemkross comp. C-more railway with an 8 moa dot, exact edge extractor, a no longer in production Clark trigger and hammer bushing, VQ Ti. X-fer bar, sombody's mag release, some kind of extended bolt release and Hogue wrap around grips. I have been racing this pistol for about 10 years and the only time I had problems is with Remington gold bullet bulk box ammo. I have used four different comps on this pistol starting with the VQ that clamped on the stock bull barrel this worked well. Second was the 36 hole Tacsol, another good comp. I thought about having the holes taped so I could "tune" it but never did. Third was the Tacsol steel comp that is for their conversion upper, works but puts wieght on the barrel end and is slab sided. I just recentley bought the Tandemkross, I have not yet shot it as my work schuedule has been nuts lately. Here is an older pic.

[photoracer]

Both my Buckmarks are also older models (1990, 1994). My open gun (1994) has a TacSol fluted 5.5" barrel with an Allchin comp, Bear Cave 90 degree C-More mount with a C-More equiped with a 12 MOA dot, custom built racker bolt, custom built thumbrest, and TacSol/Hogue aluminum grips. I use the Allchin comp because it "won" my test of several comps from TacSol, VQ, and a couple of custom makers. A few more designs have come out since then, some of which I have but I have not done any more tests. My iron sight Buckmark has a TacSol 7.25" barrel, Williams Firesights, and Buckmark Silhouette walnut grips. I can also mount a bored out VQ V-comp on the barrel and a TacSol rail to use as a backup gun for Ruger/NSSF rimfire matches. Both have the Heggis flip on the sear spring with the open gun now having a 1.8# trigger and the other a 2.5# trigger. I plan on trying out the new VQ hammer soon also.

[photoracer]

Guys. NO FLAME WARS. Both of you have valid positions. Present them, back them up with logic and facts, and LET IT GO. Keep emotion out of it. We're here to learn and help each other, not snipe, amiright?

I think it's valid to say that how useful a comp is would depend on how the gun itself is set up. The lighter the gun is - especially up top and up front - the more effective a comp will be. Somebody shooting a Mark II with a ultralight Volquartsen barrel is going to have a very different opinion about a comp's usefulness than someone shooting a tuned S&W 41. Fair statement?

As for the pros using 1911 22 conversions, I suspect they set their guns up to mirror what their primary weapon is like - because for them the .22 is most valuable as a training tool, and that means making the .22 as similar to the primary as possible. Steel Challenge is one match, and these guys are looking at competing at more matches than that every month. Of course, SC is the most fun.

A lot of truth here. When I first started discussing this stuff with BJ he shot a Buckmark like I did. Then when he went with S&W he moved to a scandium framed S&W 1911 w/ TacSol upper kit as he said for muscle memory as much as anything else. Now he is using a Ruger Mk III with a TacSol upper because he found the grip angle has allowed him to shoot faster than he could with the 1911. Same with the rimfire rifle. At the 2011 Ruger WC he shot an AR with a TacSol upper. Now at the 2014 NSSF its a 10/22 with TacSol X-Ring setup. but he put one of the TacSol steel pistol comps on the end of the barrel because he wanted a little more barrel weight in the balance.

[IHMSA15151]

I'll give you my .02 cents worth on comps. I run them on my rim fire guns and believe they help. Especially with the dot movement like T Bacus stated. A lot depends on the style though. The ones that just have holes all the way around don't help much with compensating for muzzle flip or dot movement. The best ones I have found are the ones that have large open areas on the top. I also run a comp on my rim fire rifle, but for a completely different reason. I found that often the timers weren't picking up the sound with the rifles with the barrel being so far away compared to a pistol. I have a comp that directs the gas backwards to the sides. It looks real funny (like a 50BMG comp) but it helps the timer issue.

[ZackJones]

Here's a picture of my open rimfire pistol.

Ruger 22/45 Lite with the following TamdemKross goodies installed:

- LCI replacement insert

- Extended magazine bumpers for all mags

- "Game Changer" comp

- KaneWolf Slingshot kit

- Steel hammer bushing

The red dot is a cheapy AIM one I bought from Amazon. I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it mounted that far forward. I was planning to zero it today but it's raining so no range trip for me

[gng4life]

In defense of Onepocket, he is one of the fastest, if not THE fastest, Steel shooter in this state. He might not see any difference in his times with or without a comp since he is so fast.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[dansedgli]

I shot my first match on the weekend using a tac sol kit on a Trojan frame with a cmore on top.

[IHMSA15151]

That's a nice looking set up. Is the C-More attached to the slide or mounted to the frame?

[dansedgli]

It's mounted to the barrel which doesn't move.

The tacsol kits have a removable sight rail. That comes off and I've fitted a cheely c more mount.

I don't see the on the cheely website anymore but here is a link to shooters with a better photo.

http://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/mobile/Cheely-Custom-Tacsol-C-more-Conversion-Mount-P2655.aspx

I can switch between iron sights and the cmore without having to re zero the gun which is nice.

[IHMSA15151]

Do you know if Tac Sol makes a 22 conversion that would fit my Steel Master (2011 frame)? That would be sweet basically shooting the same gun for center fire and rim fire.

[dansedgli]

I think it would be the same kit. Just a 5 inch slide on top.

I've got double stack mags so I can use it on my trubor and edge too.

[IHMSA15151]

Oh, crap, there goes some more of my money.

[Gooldylocks]

Compensators on rimfire steel guns are not about reducing recoil for fast follow-up shots. They are about cleanliness of dot movement during recoil.

You tell'em Tim. That is by far the biggest thing I got out of my comp test. I wanted to find which comp(s) allowed the dot to stay in the window of the C-More and which if any did not.

If we are only shooting one round per target, why does that matter? You shouldn't be watching the dot while it's recoiling, you should have called that shot and have your eyes on the next piece of steel, driving the gun, no?

And to prove I'm not just here to flame people, here is mine:

I like: the trigger (volquartsen), the grip angle (more similar to glocks than the 22/45s are), the thick rubber grips (gives the gun a bit more girth, they are quite skinny without).

I don't like: winchester white and red box (333, 555, etc). I am not going to waste my money on that ever again, it failed to go off probably 1 in 15 rounds. I've never once had that issue with anything else I've tried.

[T Bacus]

When doing it right I watch nothing, but I see everything.

[Onepocket]

I just point shoot

[photoracer]

When doing it right I watch nothing, but I see everything.

Correctamundo my friend, Tim. To paraphrase Brian, when you are in the zone you see all and time perception slows down. Easy to shoot fast then.

Hey Onepocket I did not see you at the North Carolina NSSF Regional this year. You should have come. Reason I know is because no one outside our squad beat any of us adults in the match. All the "pros" from VQ and TacSol were in our squad and I have shot with all of them previously (except John Nagel). Scott Campsey, John Nagel, Ron Oliver, Tim Norris, Paul Dandini, Mike Shoemaker, and me. If they have one in SC this year you might see some of us there.

[photoracer]

*thumb rest [generic]*

That is strange.

Here's a picture of my open rimfire pistol.

Ruger 22/45 Lite with the following TamdemKross goodies installed:

- LCI replacement insert

- Extended magazine bumpers for all mags

- "Game Changer" comp

- KaneWolf Slingshot kit

- Steel hammer bushing

The red dot is a cheapy AIM one I bought from Amazon. I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it mounted that far forward. I was planning to zero it today but it's raining so no range trip for me

Just get a C-More. Buy once cry once. BJ swore up and down to me thru the years that he loved the Aimpoint Micro. Put it on everything. So what happens, we get to the NSSF World Championships this year and he has C-mores on both his guns. And by the way he switched from the 1911 to a Ruger Mk III because he found it points about 10% quicker than either his 1911 or his older Brownings. He attributes it to the Luger grip angle.