Cooper Tunnel Penatlies for shooters unable to run the tunnel

[biscuit]

What if someone is not able to shoot a coopers tunnel and has to bypass for physical issue what penalty should be applied. Example bad back, wheel chair... how do we score that stage?

[mgardner]

10.2.10 covers people with physical disabilities. 10.2.10.2 covers the penalties specifically. Basically it is at the Range Master's discretion (not the RO's) and he may waive all penalties. It has to be decided before the COF is attempted though.

[BillD]

I've only shot one a few times in all the years I've been shooting. I thought it was dumb at the time and still do.

[Poppa Bear]

RM's decision. Someone who is in a wheelchair will not be burning up the stages time wise so no penalty might be appropriate. Someone who has a physical limitation that can move quickly but not bend well might shave a couple seconds off bypassing the tunnel. This would be a place for a 5 to 15 point penalty to help even things out.

[ktm300]

I've only shot one a few times in all the years I've been shooting. I thought it was dumb at the time and still do.

Come shoot GA state. Cooper tunnel and a star where you have to hold a rope to open a port to shoot it.

A good time will be had by all!

[biscuit]

Troy at USPSA Office sent me this:

Regarding the question you emailed to USPSA, the answer is you'd apply the special penalty described in 10.2.10, 10.2.10.1, and 10.2.10.2.  Note that it is a "may" apply, with final authority resting with the RM.

I think we are going with a 20% penalty on final score it will take some time to do a 34 inch tunnel.

[Steve RA]

People who don't like the tunnel really would not have liked early day matches. Climb walls with aid of rope and jump off top, do one handed reloads, hang off rope with one hand and shoot with other. Lots more little goodies I've forgotten also. Lot more physical demands in early days.

[Poppa Bear]

Troy at USPSA Office sent me this:

Regarding the question you emailed to USPSA, the answer is you'd apply the special penalty described in 10.2.10, 10.2.10.1, and 10.2.10.2.  Note that it is a "may" apply, with final authority resting with the RM.

I think we are going with a 20% penalty on final score it will take some time to do a 34 inch tunnel.

How long is the tunnel? At 34" I would take the penalty and save more than the 20% in lost time.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Poppa Bear

[a matt]

But, we have 5 target to engage in the cooper tunnel, trough 2 different ports. So skipping the tunnel in the Ga state case will eat our lunches.

[Poppa Bear]

But, we have 5 target to engage in the cooper tunnel, trough 2 different ports. So skipping the tunnel in the Ga state case will eat our lunches.

Is that tunnel 34" high? Or, is it closer to say 48"? Below 48" I would have to crawl through on my hands and knees because I cannot safely squat lower than that and keep my balance. I have shot tunnels before and as long as they are at a reasonable height they are a challenge that can be overcome. Make it so low that most shooters would have to crawl through and they become a safety issue.

Also at 48"+ most wheelchair bound people should be able to fit under it as long as it is wide enough for the chair to fit through.

The other question I would have is how would you score a stage like the Cooper tunnel at GA if the person was not capable of going through the tunnel? 5 targets with 2 Mikes each and a FTE would be a 150 point penalty that in effect zeros the stage.

[a matt]

I'm only guessing but I feel sure it will be large enough for all. They have/are some healthy shooters and MD and on and on. So it should be ok.

[Poppa Bear]

That is what I figured. When the OP talked about a 34" tunnel my assumption is that his tunnel is 34" high. It might be 34" wide which can create a challenge to keep from brushing the sides. It should not be 34" long because that is too short to create much of a challenge. If it is 34" high then we have a safety issue because forcing competitors to crawl through the tunnel raises the chances of them sweeping themselves if they keep the gun in their hand, or DQ'ing by having it drop out of their holster if they elect to holster it prior to climbing through the tunnel.

[Sarge]

But, we have 5 target to engage in the cooper tunnel, trough 2 different ports. So skipping the tunnel in the Ga state case will eat our lunches.

That could get ugly real quick since reloads are most likely going to be needed, while on knees maybe, holding a rope, trying to avoid knocking off slats, etc.

[deerassassin22]

I've only shot one a few times in all the years I've been shooting. I thought it was dumb at the time and still do.

Come shoot GA state. Cooper tunnel and a star where you have to hold a rope to open a port to shoot it.

A good time will be had by all!

The way I read the stage description is you just have to pull the noose. Otherwise you would have to shoot all strong or weak hand and that wouldn't be a legal stage. Only the last 6 shots may be strong or weak hand.

[Poppa Bear]

1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of

either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either

strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last 6 shots

required.

1.1.5.5 A course of fire which, through the use of props, requires a

competitor to shoot both strong-hand-only and weak-hand-only

must not require that the shooter transition directly from one to

the other. The course of fire must provide movement and

unencumbered freestyle target engagement between the two

This is the rule that would be used for the stage in question. You can design a 32 round stage that is 29 rounds of strong hand and weak hand as long as it is the props that force the use of either hand.

I should not have posted this!! The design team for Area 3 will probably make one up now for next year. They are great at designing stages that require the use of props for SH and WH targets.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Poppa Bear

[deerassassin22]

Ah this is going to be an interesting stage

[BeerBaron]

we do a similar thing in IPSC for people with medical needs that means they cannot comply with part of the WSB. for example I shoot with another competitor that is missing fingers from his left hand. he's right handed so if there's a WHO stage he cannot safely grip and shoot the pistol WHO. in those cases he gets (from memory) 10% taken off his score and shoots the WHO parts SHO instead. There needs to be some discretion used as in some cases competitors with a medical issue may not gain any advantage by not complying with WSB. in other cases it may be significant.

[ktm300]

I've only shot one a few times in all the years I've been shooting. I thought it was dumb at the time and still do.

Come shoot GA state. Cooper tunnel and a star where you have to hold a rope to open a port to shoot it.

A good time will be had by all!

The way I read the stage description is you just have to pull the noose. Otherwise you would have to shoot all strong or weak hand and that wouldn't be a legal stage. Only the last 6 shots may be strong or weak hand.

Pretty sure you have to pull and hold on to the noose, you can pull it SH, WH , mouth, whatever. Nothing says you have to shoot SH or WH it is up to you to decide the best way to shoot the stage. Or in other words, Freestyle!

[EEH]

Match hasn't even started yet, already questions..

[a matt]

Yea,we haven't even look at the stages other than pictures, but we are always gaming.

[EEH]

Matt,I'm to old to play a lot of games.

[a matt]

Eddie you shoot faster than most of us. Nice try.

[JAB]

Ok im one of the guy who has a very hard time shooting low ports or going prone .I shot IPSC for a few years now and I don't mined taking a penalty but every time its always 20%. Now I can understand if I was a threat and finishing high up there but im lucky if im in the middle most times im closer to the bottom of the pack my points are good but my times kill me, so for me to get a 20% added to my score I might as well just not shoot that stage and on top that most time they have set the stage up so there no other way to shoot. it.

[toothandnail]

Here's one we had at a monthly match, funny thing , we had a similar course of fire without the tunnel the previous month, total times were close because of fewer makeup shots

http://youtu.be/vsBqJkK-hFA?list=UUi1aKZq2EwVQuGsgz4Y-eqQ

[rhett45acp]

People who don't like the tunnel really would not have liked early day matches. Climb walls with aid of rope and jump off top, do one handed reloads, hang off rope with one hand and shoot with other. Lots more little goodies I've forgotten also. Lot more physical demands in early days.

Hum, back in the day we shot copper tunnels and I don't remember anyway to get through them but crawling. I guess ours where that low. I think the love hate was split about 50/50 in our shooting group.

I would like to see some of these things come back, but not to the gimmick level. I think sometimes a good stage can get ruined by one or two gimmick props. Also match management can become a nightmare.

So the OP has 5 targets being engaged somewhere in the tunnel? That's ten rounds, if paper I assume and 50 available points. So the tunnel will be the shooters potential worry and focus for a match. Gleaming all the attention from the rest of the match. So maybe the "tunnel" itself is not the issue, but keeping focus on the other XYZ points to be had the rest of the day. I make it a point to ignore gimmicks at matches and focus on what I know i can do. Then just let the love flow on the gimmicks.

BTW - We had one or two shooters on the occasion that really could not traverse the tunnel. Then we had a few gamers that would spend a lot of time thinking to take penalties or shoot as designed. We just added a couple of "appropriate" penalties, told the gamers to grow up and moved on. I don't think the "grow up" part is in the rule book. :-)