Optional Pistol Shotgun Targets

[Jesse Tischauser]

Just finished the ProAm which had most knock down steal targets as optional with shot or pistol. I've come to the conclusion that for the top shooters the only option is pistol after seeing two of the fastest pistol speed shooters in BJ Norris and Todd Jarrett smash two stages shooting all pistol rather than any shotgun. Heck the shotgun is my strongest gun and the pistol the weakest and I shot only 50 rounds of shot and close to 200 rounds of pistol.

What is everyone else's take on the optional targets after seeing them at matches now for over a year.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[dcloudy777]

It depends a great deal on the target and the shooter. You start running into things like those damn little 4" plates at FNH, and you better be a bona fide pistol badass or use the shotgun.

[Moltke]

It's no surprise that a small lightweight accurized low recoil high capacity firearm that can be reloaded in 1 sec is what many will choose.

I would.

[CraigS.]

I think the optional steel is great but.......... it all depends on how many big or small the targets there are and the distance they are placed.

The stage designer has to make some of the targets in each array a challenging shot with both guns.

[Moltke]

I don't think we need to increase the "challenge" on hitting the targets, the "challenge" should be getting all your hits fast. All targets should be an everyman accuracy requirement for a pistol or a shotgun, fall easy from either a pistol or a shotgun, and the number & spacing of them should be that the advantage of shooting them would go to what gun you can run faster / not what gun you can run the longest without reloading.

Jesse, I hear what you're saying (let me know if I'm wrong). Even though they're optional -

If there were 8 targets would people bother with their pistol? Nah just blast 'em (with the shotgun)

If there were 18 targets would people bother with their shotgun? Nah just blast 'em (with the pistol)

Essentially by the number of targets placed downrange the match director is giving the illusion of choice and the illusion of letting people play to their strengths, but know that by how the targets are arrayed 90% of shooters will be handicapped by choosing "the other gun", so its all shot the same way (that other 10% being Open gunners)

As I see no problem with this, I understand why you do - but until the sport changes to focus shotgunning on "shooting" instead of "reloading"... its not going to change

Edited August 25, 2014 by Moltke

[alma]

Jesse, as you know I had a similar question for all of those 12+ round stages where you start with a shotgun and can reload or transition to a pistol.

I think you observed that a gun transition should be about equal to loading 4 so anything more than that 12 might almost certainly lean towards pistol.

It would be really interesting to get out and see and what point distance on the targets affects that decision one direction or the other. I also need to go back over the FNH stages to see how many would be shotgun optional. It seemed like all of the sug shots were optional meaning no slugs for me this match.

[Bryan 45]

I'm not a big fan of optional targets for those very reasons. My opinion is a 3 gun match should be a balanced test of skills, and if the shooter gets to decide what he's best at, and rarely utilize what he struggles with, then it's more of a test of decision making ability than marksmanship. Unlike what may be the growing minority in the sport, I enjoy the increased challenge of accuracy over finding the fastest split. Probably why I've never cared for USPSA pistol matches.

Of all the matches I've shot with optional targets in the last few years, it's nearly impossible for a MD to design stages that are so well laid out that the choice is difficult, unless a given shooter really struggles with handgun. We saw many in the Amateur match that went all shotgun on the steel, but most in the Pro side leaned toward the pistol. I appreciate the efforts of the match directors in making targets optional, but when the choice is pretty clear as to which gun is fastest, this becomes sort of like bonus targets- not really optional at all.

BJ had some smoking pistol arrays, but he also shot his rifle very well on several stages, and went 7 for 7 on the slug stage.

[alma]

Since we are on the topic, rifle for all paper targets whenever practical? unless shooting in some tight ports it seems like rifle would always be easier on paper.

[CraigS.]

So which gun would you prefer using on a 4" KO plate at 18-20yds?

I encourage you to do some testing from a low ready with both shotgun and pistol.

[alma]

So which gun would you prefer using on a 4" KO plate at 18-20yds?

I encourage you to do some testing from a low ready with both shotgun and pistol.

We had some of those at about that distance at a match not too long ago. Most people weren't able to get them to fall with shotgun. People without adjustable chokes and thier home defense 870 or similar had no hope. Of course, most had significant difficulty hitting them with the pistol as well.

[Jesse Tischauser]

So which gun would you prefer using on a 4" KO plate at 18-20yds?

I encourage you to do some testing from a low ready with both shotgun and pistol.

You're only option is a shotgun unless there are a 50 of them. The way to push shooters to choose shotgun is to make the targets small and far away. But if you intentionally do that why not just leave them at 7-20 yards and make them mandatory shotgun targets?

[Jesse Tischauser]

Since we are on the topic, rifle for all paper targets whenever practical? unless shooting in some tight ports it seems like rifle would always be easier on paper.

Most of the pro series guys run pistol on paper inside 25 as long as you don't already have a rifle in your hands for long shots. Those slow/boring half size targets force you into the rifle at closer ranges.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[alma]

or put one clay on Stage 1 in the middle of a steel array. I most cases I would prefer mandatory so I know everyone is on equal footing versus optional.

It seems like this stuff is done in 3 gun matches to give the allusion of stage options versus just designing stages that are interesting to shoot without trying to mind rape the participant.

[alma]

Since we are on the topic, rifle for all paper targets whenever practical? unless shooting in some tight ports it seems like rifle would always be easier on paper.

Most of the pro series guys run pistol on paper inside 25 as long as you don't already have a rifle in your hands for long shots. Those slow/boring half size targets force you into the rifle at closer ranges.

Thanks!

[Moltke]

4" square at 20 yards is a "F-You" target to the average guy because they're going to spend a magazine's worth of ammo trying to hit it with a pistol, or not be running a tight enough choke / hot enough load with a shotgun to knock it down.

Maybe some learning will occur from the experience?? but really what is the good side of forcing someone to play "pistol sniper" or make them do a shotgun mag dump on a target?

Give people reasonable targets they can hit & knockdown in 1 round if they can apply Sight Alignment & Trigger Control with each gun. Then see who can do it 1) the fastest 2) with the fewest misses, mistakes & penalties.

The accuracy requirement in 3 Gun doesn't need to be made extra hard because its an active time based contest.

[Stlhead]

Wow, lots of hot topics today! Targets that can be engaged with the shooters choice of firearms allow the shooter more freedom to choose how they solve the shooting problem. Options allow the shooter to choose the best plan of action based on the skills and equipment that they have available to them at that time, along with the level of risk vs reward they choose to accept. If the target is too difficult or even impossible for the shooter then that becomes part of the shooting problem as well. You must know your limitations and work inside them. Every shooter has to decide what the ultimate goal of the stage actually is. For the top shooters the goal is to complete the stage with the lowest total time after penalties, but for many shooters, the goal is to hit as many targets as possible in the time allowed. Just because a particular target is outside the ability of some or even most shooters, that does not mean it is impossible. The question that makes the game fun is can you do it fast enough to overcome the penalty for not neutralizing it? Will I hit it with my pistol in less than the time it would take to put in another shot shell? How fast can I transition from pistol to rifle? These questions are the sort that spice up choice stages, and I like the trend toward more choice.

[Paul-the new guy]

The 4" targets are sometimes easier to hit than an 18x24" because you know off the bat you better respect them.

[Moltke]

True and ive seen that in action. But not respecting a target is different than its level of difficulty. Thats the shooter making it hard, not because the target is hard.

If you consider an accurized "3 gun pistol" can shoot a 1-2 inch group from a rest at 25 yards then with a 4 inch target you're pushing shooters close to the limit of mechanical accuracy while on the clock. Striker guns off the shelf rarely have that accuracy even after significant work so knowing what people are going to arrive with that target is a pretty high demand. Especially considering its an "action" sport you take the "action" to a standstill when you out introduce an unusually high accuracy requirement.

Larger targets test the shooter not the gear.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I stood still shooting tiny rifle paper and medium sized pistol steal all weekend at the ProAm.

This is the second major match with optional targets that I shot two stages using almost all pistol. I remember back when 3-gun still required 3-guns. It was weird!

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[alma]

Looks like three stages plus one clay is all you will need for shotgun shooting at FNH.

Glad I just bought a new one.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Larry has a lot if those difficult 4"x10" MGM knock overs. Those are shotgun targets in my game if I'm allowed to use it.

[alma]

Full choke or 6 shot game loads?

I think there is only one clay bird in the entire match.

[Moltke]

4x10 is a lot more surface area for an IC choke to put pattern on target (assuming you know where gun patterns) and even with a light load inside 25 yards that's good shotgunning.

[MarkCO]

I pretty much agree with Shawn's post.

Just because the "top pros" have no real choice but to shoot pistol on most of the optional stages (at some matches) does not make those target choices less appealing for the masses. Like it or not, the MAJORITY of 3Gun is driven by MDs, ROs and competitors who are on their vacation, enjoy the social and just want to enjoy shooting. Fortunately, the few MDs/RMs who are also on the Pro Tour understand customer service and how to set up stages that will encourage the pros to shoot it one way, but still allow the common 3Gunner to choose his targets and platform.

After watching a few top 3Gunners look at some of the stages at the Noveske match last year, for nearly half an hour, trying to decide how to shoot the stage, which guns on which targets, I think there is a very good potential that well thought out stages will see top shooters shoot different plans, and still be able to do well.

[OPENB]

AM stage 7 I shot all pistol, and smoked my squad. I'm an A limited shooter, and hate shotgun. Shotgun wasn't really an option with the no-shoot placement so close to the shoot steel. On AM stage 1, I shot 9 of the 12 poppers with shotgun, dumped it and went to pistol. You could make up the other poppers since you had to go up there anyhow to finish the stage. If I had shot open, I definitely would go pistol anytime I can. Did I mention I hate shotgun? Wouldn't break my heart if this became 2 gun.