Can I shoot 'em in the back?

[cas]

Bored at the last match, waiting on the squad ahead of us, I brought this up for discussion just to see people's view points. We were on a stage where a couple targets were set up in such a way that if you reached around the wall a bit, you could safely shoot the targets from behind. There was no advantage, so no one was going to do it, it was just theoretical, asking people how they'd score it. (Keep "bad course design" to yourself, that's not the point. That ship already sailed.)

It looks like a no shoot, but it's not. Scoring targets are scoring targets. No shoots are no shoots. But by the rules, scoring targets are supposed to be a single color. Obviously they're not. Maybe it's like dividing by zero and if you shoot a scoring target on the white side, the USPSA universe implodes.

On the other side, again, "bad course design aside", if a shooter finds a way to shoot a no shoot target through the brown side, can he argue the penalty? "It wasn't white, so I shot it." Does he get a reshoot under the "uh... we don't have a rule for that off the top of our heads, but don't do it again" clause? Score it without the penalty and pretend it didn't happen, the time you wasted is your penalty for being stupid... And don't do it again.

Or is this covered somewhere in the rules? I'm certainly not going to look for it. lol I'm bored at work on what should be my day off, but I'm not that bored.

[ChuckS]

Bored at the last match, waiting on the squad ahead of us, I brought this up for discussion just to see people's view points. We were on a stage where a couple targets were set up in such a way that if you reached around the wall a bit, you could safely shoot the targets from behind. There was no advantage, so no one was going to do it, it was just theoretical, asking people how they'd score it. (Keep "bad course design" to yourself, that's not the point. That ship already sailed.)

It looks like a no shoot, but it's not. Scoring targets are scoring targets. No shoots are no shoots. But by the rules, scoring targets are supposed to be a single color. Obviously they're not. Maybe it's like dividing by zero and if you shoot a scoring target on the white side, the USPSA universe implodes.

On the other side, again, "bad course design aside", if a shooter finds a way to shoot a no shoot target through the brown side, can he argue the penalty? "It wasn't white, so I shot it." Does he get a reshoot under the "uh... we don't have a rule for that off the top of our heads, but don't do it again" clause? Score it without the penalty and pretend it didn't happen, the time you wasted is your penalty for being stupid... And don't do it again.

Or is this covered somewhere in the rules? I'm certainly not going to look for it. lol I'm bored at work on what should be my day off, but I'm not that bored.

IMHO, Can't shoot 'em in the back...

9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penal-ties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

9.5.8 Hits visible on a scoring paper target or no-shoot, which are the result of shots fired through the rear of the target or no-shoot, will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

Later,

Chuck

Edited August 24, 2014 by ChuckS

[Jakobi]

9.5.8 specifically states that shots through the back of a target will not count for score.

[Nik Habicht]

CAS,

to answer your question -- sure you can do so. But you probably won't like the call, as it'll either be two misses and FTE, or if you misjudged the angle a possible match DQ for breaking the 180.....

[cas]

So what's the call when a drop turner target takes it in the side and crosses the target laterally?

[eliminator]

Miss.

[ChuckS]

Miss.

Rule?

[Nik Habicht]

So what's the call when a drop turner target takes it in the side and crosses the target laterally?

Drop turner is scored the same way as any other "engaged at an angle" target. No evidence of a bullet ogive = a miss......

Somewhere in that long hole I need to find evidence that confirms it was made by a bullet to be able to call a hit....

[BSeevers]

Yes if he is a cattle rustler you may plug him in the back

[grapemeister]

9.5.9 Hits upon scoring or no-shoot paper targets, must completely pass through the target to be considered a valid hit and count for score or penalty.

9.5.5 Enlarged holes in paper targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evi-dence within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a “crown” etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet or splatter.

9.5.5. doesn't really apply to the discussed scenarios, but could come into play under the right conditions.

Edited August 24, 2014 by grapemeister

[motosapiens]

So what's the call when a drop turner target takes it in the side and crosses the target laterally?

Drop turner is scored the same way as any other "engaged at an angle" target. No evidence of a bullet ogive = a miss......

Somewhere in that long hole I need to find evidence that confirms it was made by a bullet to be able to call a hit....

Yep, if it looks like a butterfly made the hole, I'll call it a miss every time.

Honestly I've never seen a hole in a drop turner that could have come from anything except a bullet, but if you have steel nearby all sorts of weird things could happen. It is also *possible* depending on the setup and the particular device, that a drop-turner could rotate far enough for you to hit in the back. I suspect it could be difficult (but not impossible) to tell an elongated hole in the front from one in the back.

Edited August 24, 2014 by motosapiens

[GrumpyOne]

There was a thread on here somewhere, where a shooter was engaging a drop turner, and hit it exactly sideways on his last shot, and completely cut it, and the sticks holding it, in half.

Nik, I think you were part of the discussion on that thread, and the shooter may have been Mark Ramsay ( IMA45DV8)...do you remember anything about it? About how it turned out?

[Nik Habicht]

There was a thread on here somewhere, where a shooter was engaging a drop turner, and hit it exactly sideways on his last shot, and completely cut it, and the sticks holding it, in half.

Nik, I think you were part of the discussion on that thread, and the shooter may have been Mark Ramsay ( IMA45DV8)...do you remember anything about it? About how it turned out?

Once upon a time, under different rules that would have scored an alpha -- assuming that the cut traveled through or touched the A-zone.....

Now it would be dependent on evidence of a bullet strike being found on the face of the target, and an overlay would be used to determine if it scored in the higher zone, if the evidence was close to but not on the line.....

[Sarge]

Standing around on a stage bored? I would spend that time reading the rule book

[Poppa Bear]

I seem to recall a discussion about a target that had an elongated hole near the edge that did NOT cut through the target because it exited the edge before it could cut all the way through. Scored as a miss because it failed to fully penetrate the target.

[pmt]

How do you reach around a wall and shoot a target through the back without breaking 180? I don't think there is any scoring issue on a DQ.

[motosapiens]

How do you reach around a wall and shoot a target through the back without breaking 180? I don't think there is any scoring issue on a DQ.

easy if the target is placed at an angle (like many targets are).

[pmt]

How do you reach around a wall and shoot a target through the back without breaking 180? I don't think there is any scoring issue on a DQ.

easy if the target is placed at an angle (like many targets are).

What angle (in degrees) are we talking about? Anything off the 180 far enough to be shot from the back can not safely be shot from the front. Please explain.

[NMBOpen]

Picture a wall parallel to the 180. Target behind wall, perpendicular to it. From one end of wall you see the front of the target, from other end of wall, the back is visible.

______|_____

! !

[Poppa Bear]

No, set the target at a 90 to the left side of the wall and you will see the back at a 90 degree angle from the right side.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Poppa Bear

[motosapiens]

How do you reach around a wall and shoot a target through the back without breaking 180? I don't think there is any scoring issue on a DQ.

easy if the target is placed at an angle (like many targets are).

What angle (in degrees) are we talking about? Anything off the 180 far enough to be shot from the back can not safely be shot from the front. Please explain.

Sorry, but you are incorrect. Imagine if you will a target that is oriented parallel with the downrange direction, so that you see it on edge. If you take a few steps to either side, you can shoot it from either side with the gun still being 45 degrees or more away from breaking the 180.

If you have an L-shaped shooting area, it is not hard at all to have targets that are visible from both sides. We make sure to block them off with barrels or other vision barriers to prevent confusion.

[alma]

I seem to recall a discussion about a target that had an elongated hole near the edge that did NOT cut through the target because it exited the edge before it could cut all the way through. Scored as a miss because it failed to fully penetrate the target.

Here is the rule for that scenario

9.5.5 Enlarged holes in paper targets which exceed the competitors bullet diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evidence within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a crown etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet or splatter.

[Poppa Bear]

9.5.9 Hits upon scoring or no-shoot paper targets, must completely pass through the target to be considered a valid hit and count for score or penalty.

This would be the relevant rule.

[aztecdriver]

Guys, his scenario is very plausible to have without even coming close to a DQ. Think of a wall area with a port through it, two targets could be at the edge of the wall so I have to go to the wall edge to shoot them, and have their backs inside the port area, easily visible and be well down range.

There's no need to go on a DQ march on this because how you visualize the question makes it not feasible.

[pmt]

Guys, his scenario is very plausible to have without even coming close to a DQ. Think of a wall area with a port through it, two targets could be at the edge of the wall so I have to go to the wall edge to shoot them, and have their backs inside the port area, easily visible and be well down range.

There's no need to go on a DQ march on this because how you visualize the question makes it not feasible.

...but the OP said they had to reach around, not that each side was visible from up range because the target was perpendicular to the back stop.