Would this be considered a violation of the cited rules?

[BJinPass]

This past weekend, I had the unfortunate pleasure of having the case head separate from a case during a stage. The case head got ejected, but the barrel of the case remained lodged in the chamber. After the usual malfunction drill, it was clear this wasn't going to be an easy fix with just fingers, so I unloaded and showed clear.

However, several questions came up later. I am an RO and I am still not sure of the answers.

1. Would the portion of the case remaining in the chamber be considered "clear" under 8.3.7.3? If not, and the pistol could not be easily cleared without additional tools, how would you clear the gun to clear the range?

2. I went to the safe area and was able to eventually remove the partial case using a knife to pry it out of the chamber. However, I did handle the case once it was removed. Would this be considered a violation of 10.5.12?

At the time of the issue, neither of these rules occurred to me as it seemed pretty clear that even though a part of the case remained, it could not be considered to meet the definition of live or dummy ammunition. But I am now wondering if it might be seen another way.

What are your thoughts on whether this should have been a DQ?

[Smitty79]

I have seen ROs escort shooters to the safety area to clear squibs. Seems like this would be the same kind of thing.

[austex]

Perhaps the RO could supervise as you removed the barrel while still on the stage. The RO could call range is clear after you placed the frame and slide in a bag or case that someone else brought up. Then you could go anywhere except a safe area to pull out the rest of the case. That would avoid both issues you identified.

[GrumpyOne]

I think that if the case were not reloadable, I.E. not able to be loaded with powder and bullet again, then it is no longer a case...but just a piece of scrap metal.

[2MoreChains]

I think the first priority is to ensure "range is clear". That means the RO and shooter should ensure there is no live ammo in the gun, then bag it or holster it so everyone else can go down range and reset (get on with the rest of the match).

Rule 5.7.7 has language in it about the RO taking "whatever steps he deems necessary to return both competitor and range to a safe condition". I've started to keep a long zip tie in my bag so we can probe the barrel (from the chamber side) whenever we suspect a squib. If the zip tie makes it all the way to the muzzle of the barrel that satisfies me as to whether or not the gun is "clear".

After that, you need to go some place where you can handle your gun to fix the problem. As has already been established, there isn't any live ammunition in the gun (just the remains of the casing) so the logical place to retire to is the Safety Area, which is the only place (outside of the stage while being supervised by the RO) where you can handle your gun.

Unfortunately rule 2.4.2 specifically prohibits empty cases (in addition to dummy rounds, snap caps, training rounds) at a Safety Area, but it kind of begs the question of what else are you to do? My suggestion is to talk to the MD or RM and seek their permission to use the SA to extract the remains of the "empty case". They may want you supervised by a match official or verify for themselves that the lodged case is not loaded ammo.

Hopefully common sense can prevail here, but I would ask first to safeguard yourself from getting sideways of a rule.

[Nik Habicht]

2 more chains hits it pretty close to how I would deal with it as an RO. Clear the gun -- disassemble if possible if any portion of the case remains in the chamber. You can handle a barrel anywhere......

If the Safety Table is the best place to pound it out, I'd let you do that under the supervision of an RO. That's partly to protect you (the competitor from someone else declaring a DQ) and partly to ensure that if anything else untoward should crop up, there's someone present to call "Stop" and figure out what to do next.....

[Sarge]

Seems to be some very good questions by the OP. And some very good answers by the members. Any good RO should have a rod or zip tie to be able to declare a gun safe to leave the stage. Tell the RO that you want to get it out and have an RO go with you to the safety area to fix it. In a local match the same should happen except the RO would probably tell you to find the MD and get clarification on what you can do to get the gun back in the match.

[Gary Stevens]

Sometimes the RO crew has to just think on their feet. Not everything can be covered in the rulebook and common sense has to be applied at times while maintain safety.

I remember the first time I had a shooter that could not clear his gun. It was in battery, but would not eject, a bulged case most likely as I knew it was not a squib. I recorded the time and the shooter shot the round into the berm. Problem solved.

Another time a shooter went prone and his ear protection came off pulling his glasses off in the process. I closely watched the shooter to see what he was going to do. He placed the gun on safe, laid it on a sand bag in front of him, replaced his safety equipment, and continued shooting. I never said a word during the process. At this time we had no rules to cover the situation and I had to deal with it. Shortly thereafter the process was incorporated into the rule book.

[2MoreChains]

Clear the gun -- disassemble if possible if any portion of the case remains in the chamber. You can handle a barrel anywhere......

If the Safety Table is the best place to pound it out, I'd let you do that under the supervision of an RO. That's partly to protect you (the competitor from someone else declaring a DQ) and partly to ensure that if anything else untoward should crop up, there's someone present to call "Stop" and figure out what to do next.....

That's a good thought. I didn't think about if you dismantled a pistol then you can handle the barrel anywhere. Based on the way the OP described the situation sounds like this could have been one of his options.

Per def'n of "handling" it says: The act of manipulating, holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible.

It sounds like the def'n was written with the idea in mind that it is OK to put your hand on a holstered firearm, but I don't see why you couldn't use that def'n to support handling just the barrel while not at the Safety Area seeing as a barrel is neither a firearm nor would it be connected to a trigger if it was dismantled.

The reason I went with carrying a zip tie in my bag to check for squibs was so we could push it down the barrel from the chamber side with the gun at slide lock. Can't do that with a solid rod and coming in from the muzzle end you run the risk of sweeping yourself. Have also dropped a pebble down the barrel from the chamber end to see if there were any obstructions.

[motosapiens]

Regarding the squib.... it's not obvious from these posts whether a gun is considered 'not clear' if there is a squib lodged in the barrel but no live ammo in the gun? I have always declared the range clear and sent the shooter with some assistance or supervision off to find a squib rod and a safe table.

Regarding a case fragment, like a cylindrical part of the front of the case, The one time I saw it, we did the normal ULSC and the shooter went and fixed it. For surely, a fragment of a case is not a case, and I think grumpy one's definition of 'not reloadable' is a reasonable rule of thumb.

[Fuelie777]

I believe motosapiens said it very well. This is how I have handled it in the past. A case fragment is obviously not a loaded round. Unfortunate for the shooter, but he can then retire to correct the issue.

[CJW]

This was just covered at the RO class I took. If there is no live round in the gun (and if the case head separated on extraction after the chambered round was fired, that is pretty certain), the pistol is safe and can be moved to a safe area. If the RO can not assure that the pistol is clear of loaded rounds, then it can not be moved off the stage.

A squibbed barrel with no live round in the chamber is clear and can be moved (safely) to the safe area for remedial work.

[kcobean]

This exact thing happened on my stage at the VA/MD sectional. Shooter had a case separate and a piece of it hit him in the nose and he was bleeding pretty good. The barrel of the case was still in the chamber. I had him ULSC, and since by no definition of the word is the remaining piece of brass still ammunition, I called him clear and sent him to the safe area to fix his gun after someone looked at his nose. The rules don't really cover this specific condition, but I can't think of a way in which it presents a safety hazard, so I felt fine about letting him off the range.

[EkuJustice]

I would inspect the chamber. If the case head is gone finish the unloading process as the gun is clear and send the shooter off to fix it. If it's simply the barrel of the case ie no case head I can say with 100 percent certainty the gun is clear and will not fire. No need to send an ro to supervise the situation. Sometimes we need to use a little common sence. Like Gary said