New 3-Gun Scoring System

[kurtm]

S.O.F. always had their own scoring system. None of the founders of S.O.F. thought very much of the IPSC crowd and certainly would never use their scoring, nor were they ever part of IPSC. It was points based...just like I posted, you know the 10, 8,6/10,7,4 thing. They never did the 100 points thing, that is IMGA driven. I'm Sure Chad covered all this in his History of 3-Gun book.

[toothandnail]

Did you vote in the last two presidential elections? I did, my vote didn't count, but I'm still going to vote in the next one. And in the mean time, I'm also going to write elected representatives of my displeasure with the direction our elected officials are dragging us.

Is our sport much different?

The problem I see is

1: you have to signup for the match loooooong before any stages are posted.

2: sometimes you don't know who is designing the stages til closeto match date

3: until you "know" what king of stages the MD sets up, all you have is HOPE that the MD will have balanced stages.

[kurtm]

And let me ask you this Jesse. Was the Nordic Shotgun match a single gun match? IPSC scoring works just dandy for single gun matches, it is when you have miss matched power factors in a single stage that it falls apart!

[P.E. Kelley]

I am hoping Kurt or Trapr will chime in with a more complete remembrance of the SOF matches (or anyone else that remembers)

I don’t get the dislike for short (20 second stages) I just want to be able to see every target (with the unaided eye) be challenged and have fun!

The Old SOF match had stages where you might only (if you shot poorly) get to shoot 2 or 3 rounds!

I remember one stage… “decreasing time” (?)

A plate rack at 15 yards.

One paper target also at 15 yards.

Fixed time.

Starting with pistol loaded and holstered hands at sides.

String one 3.5 seconds.

String two 3

String three 2.5

String four 2

String five 1.5

String six 1 second.

On signal draw and knock over ONE plate and then engage paper target with ONE round only.

You must knock over one plate BEFORE you engage paper.

Your score is the accumulative points on paper. (The stage had an assigned point value, then you got a % of the points based on your paper hits)

I watched it happen at the match where a shooter could not get through the second string.

Total shots fired for score…ONE! He only hit the paper after knocking over the plate on the first string.

Were some shooters sweating bullets on this stage??? Hell yes! Was it a challenge? Hell yes!

Why would this short time duration stage not be a good stage at a major match?

[kurtm]

Sadly Trapr never got to shoot an S.O.F. match. Decreasing time was a great stage, it would resurface from time to time, but I remember it a bit different, so I looked it up. Set up was as you said. However the times were a bit different and the procedure was a bit different. It started at 5 seconds and decreased by 1/2 second for each successful attempt. Procedure was to draw, shoot two shots on paper for score and knock over one plate. If you didn't make the time you were done at that point

[P.E. Kelley]

Got it! Yea that sparked the memory of the stage. I found it funny...upon returning home I would notice that I did not

shoot but few rounds of ammo per gun and yet I never felt cheated. The stages were such that high round count was not needed.

Thanks Kurt...where did you look it up? Old match book?

[kurtm]

Yep, but a lot of their standards were also GunSite Drills as both the Mikes taught for the Col.

[P.E. Kelley]

How about the one with the rolling plates? Where you released them with a pistol shot and then had to put them down as

they rolled. The sooner the better for a better score! Man that was fun!

[kurtm]

That was called the Apiture. as far as I know it is still set up at GunSite, but I haven't been there in a while

[P.E. Kelley]

That was called the Apiture. as far as I know it is still set up at GunSite, but I haven't been there in a while

I've never been...maybe a "bucket list" item?

[MarkCO]

Actually the first two SOF matches were sanctioned by IPSC Kurt...

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Did you vote in the last two presidential elections? I did, my vote didn't count, but I'm still going to vote in the next one. And in the mean time, I'm also going to write elected representatives of my displeasure with the direction our elected officials are dragging us.

Is our sport much different?

And how many times do you get chastised, called names,.....for saying something against the administration you didn't vote for?

Your analogy is solid and exposed another reason things don't change. If you say something negative about a match that you didn't like....you catch hell for it, something I've found out first hand.

As for matches never having 20 second stages....I can't got that far with you. I love big stages with a lot of movement and targets and love having to bring a ton of ammo to match. I still enjoy those fast burner stages but personally feel they should not be worth as much as big stages when using percentage of finisher to determine score from 100pt stage values. I also think that of you were going to have an 8 stage match and 2 are burner stages, you need to now have an 11-12 stage match if your match fee is going to be expensive.

[Jesse Tischauser]

And let me ask you this Jesse. Was the Nordic Shotgun match a single gun match? IPSC scoring works just dandy for single gun matches, it is when you have miss matched power factors in a single stage that it falls apart!

Yeah it was a shotgun match so it was one gun but there were no power factors. But there are no power factors in 3-gun either. I don't think I understand why assigning 5 points per target is dependent on power factor.

I guess whoever said that it really doesn't matter what scoring is used is correct. If the matches fill which they do why would an MD change.

Sorry to have muddled this thread with more questions then answers.

[MickB]

In SMM3G IMGA rules, there are power factors for pistol and rifle in the Heavy Divisions....

Mick

[EaZeNuTZ33]

In SMM3G IMGA rules, there are power factors for pistol and rifle in the Heavy Divisions....

Mick

I've seen this in Heavy Irons and with rifle in Heavy Optics at several matches.

While I don't dislike the Tooth And Nail scoring system, it may serve to be too complicated for many. What about simplifying things with the same concept.

Time plus scoring.

5pts for every target to quantify a stage value.

Maintain increased time penalties for rifle targets over 200, slug targets, and targets like spinners.

Done.

[kurtm]

Yes Mark for sure the second one was "sanctioned" by IPSC and Ken Hackathorn ran it tournament style. Meaning there was a rifle match, a shotgun match and a pistol match. I was thinking mainly of the two Mikes, Mike Horn and Mike Wadalich who took it over and started running it as a multi-gun format, but yes it was "sanctioned"...but it sure wasn't IPSC scoring, and never was! Now how do you think they got it sanctioned?...hint who was the President of IPSC back then?

[gose]

Jesse, you're right. That's why sub-20 second stages have no place in a major match. In my opinion.

I have only shot one regional but I was not a fan of the two small stages. They felt like stages we shoot at our club match because they actually are. Much like I never liked shooting a classifier at an area USPSA match. They have reasons for wanting to get more shooters they the Classifiers so I understand why the Classifiers are there.

So we're coming up with a new scoring system because 3GN classifiers are used at 3GN regional matches?

You could just tell 3GN to use better stages, or shoot non-3GN matches. That might be an easier solution than coming up with a new scoring system

[Jesse Tischauser]

Jesse, you're right. That's why sub-20 second stages have no place in a major match. In my opinion.

I have only shot one regional but I was not a fan of the two small stages. They felt like stages we shoot at our club match because they actually are. Much like I never liked shooting a classifier at an area USPSA match. They have reasons for wanting to get more shooters they the Classifiers so I understand why the Classifiers are there.

So we're coming up with a new scoring system because 3GN classifiers are used at 3GN regional matches?

You could just tell 3GN to use better stages, or shoot non-3GN matches. That might be an easier solution than coming up with a new scoring system

Actually "we" haven't come up with anything. You have merely come here to pile on the anti 3-gun nation bandwagon. If you were doing anything but I'd explain myself. Or you could have simply read the thread and you'll understand what the discussion is.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[TRUBL]

OK....talking time + scoring here.....

Having 'burner' stages is not the issue.....having there weight equal to a large stage is. We saw that back when I was RM for the DPMS tri-gun. What we did to equalize that was that 'smaller, faster' stages were assigned a smaller point value. If some had a burp on a small stage...they could still come back in another stage.

Number of targets may or may not determine the 'weight' of the stage......I feel that the time to do the stage does. You can have a 36 target stage that could be run in 30 seconds.....while a 16 target rifle stage may take 60 to 90 seconds. It's gonna be a best guess......but assign a point value to a stage MIGHT be a step in the right direction to equalize a match.

The Nordic Shotgun match, I believe has been 'point weighing' stages since the beginning. They've not done IPSC scoring as that would have been a hit factor type of scoring and I am pretty sure they are doing time + still.

Tim

[Stlhead]

There is not enough animosity and name calling in this thread to realy suit my tastes. Kurt, you are a poopy pants and I don't care for your leading hint type answers. Jessie, your hair is unstylish and your eye protection makes you look like a 70's porn star, you should marry 3 gun nation cause you love it so much. We have reached a point where no one's opinions are going to be swayed by any arguments no matter how valid or reasonable they may be. The only real benefit to continuing this thread is purely for entertainment. As nothing is more entertaining as name calling and juvenile personal attacks, I say we just turn this thread into a good old fashion goat rodeo untill an overvealous moderator quashes our fun. Who's with me?

Edited August 2, 2014 by Stlhead

[gose]

Jesse, you're right. That's why sub-20 second stages have no place in a major match. In my opinion.

I have only shot one regional but I was not a fan of the two small stages. They felt like stages we shoot at our club match because they actually are. Much like I never liked shooting a classifier at an area USPSA match. They have reasons for wanting to get more shooters they the Classifiers so I understand why the Classifiers are there.

So we're coming up with a new scoring system because 3GN classifiers are used at 3GN regional matches?

You could just tell 3GN to use better stages, or shoot non-3GN matches. That might be an easier solution than coming up with a new scoring system

Actually "we" haven't come up with anything. You have merely come here to pile on the anti 3-gun nation bandwagon. If you were doing anything but I'd explain myself. Or you could have simply read the thread and you'll understand what the discussion is.

tl;dr.

I was just pointing out the fact that it seemed like one of the reasons for _your_ new scoring system was that the current scoring system didnt work very well for short 3GN classifiers and that if you're not happy with how that worked out, there are easier and less contentious ways of rectifying that.

My intent was more to pile on the anti new scoring system bandwagon than the anti 3GN one.

[Jesse Tischauser]

OK....talking time + scoring here.....

Having 'burner' stages is not the issue.....having there weight equal to a large stage is. We saw that back when I was RM for the DPMS tri-gun. What we did to equalize that was that 'smaller, faster' stages were assigned a smaller point value. If some had a burp on a small stage...they could still come back in another stage.

Number of targets may or may not determine the 'weight' of the stage......I feel that the time to do the stage does. You can have a 36 target stage that could be run in 30 seconds.....while a 16 target rifle stage may take 60 to 90 seconds. It's gonna be a best guess......but assign a point value to a stage MIGHT be a step in the right direction to equalize a match.

The Nordic Shotgun match, I believe has been 'point weighing' stages since the beginning. They've not done IPSC scoring as that would have been a hit factor type of scoring and I am pretty sure they are doing time + still.

Tim

You are 100% correct Tim! Balanced stages is key or stages need to be weighed based on a stages hit factor somehow. Edited August 2, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[toothandnail]

Funny how most of the naysayers always say "IF a match has balanced stages, a different method is not needed"

To which we all agree.

But this is reality, many matches are not balanced, most of us have no way of knowing until long after signup, so the vote with your $$ doesn't work to well, until next year.

Also none of the "new scoring method" guys are against short burner stages(8-20 sec.), we all agree they are fun and have a place.( not in a major match) Just that they should not be worth the same points as a long stage(100-120 sec. )

The name calling, or out right dismissal because of some ones name associated with it is juvenile at best. I would hope as adults we would be past that.

Nobody claimed this was the answer to scoring anomalies in the current methods, just looking for discussion of how to improve it.

All the "it's too hard to score" comments show the individual didn't read how it works.

There were a few who gave a some instances that need looked at. Namely how to value a target that could be shot from 2 locations,( distance with rifle VS close with SG )

[Moltke]

Is the rifle shooting or pistol shooting "more important" than the shotgun shooting? It was stated earlier that this sport was martial in its beginnings so I would argue that its all equally important to know how to use all three guns. If that is so then make the point value standard per round required to neutralize all targets. 12 pistol 12 rifle 12 shotgun would make a 36 point course of fire. Incur time penalties for FTN targets, the farther away it is the higher the penalty. Time plus penalties, done. Winner gets 36 points and everyone else gets a fraction. Most points wins the match.

Sorry no name calling as I don't know anyone here personally.

[TRUBL]

Is the rifle shooting or pistol shooting "more important" than the shotgun shooting? It was stated earlier that this sport was martial in its beginnings so I would argue that its all equally important to know how to use all three guns. If that is so then make the point value standard per round required to neutralize all targets. 12 pistol 12 rifle 12 shotgun would make a 36 point course of fire. Incur time penalties for FTN targets, the farther away it is the higher the penalty. Time plus penalties, done. Winner gets 36 points and everyone else gets a fraction. Most points wins the match.

Sorry no name calling as I don't know anyone here personally.

Sorry.....almost done, not quite. In time plus scoring, you would need to weigh based on 'perceived' time to complete a stage.....number of targets may or may not have a bearing on that.

maybe on a scale like the following:

short stage: 10 to 30 seconds 30 points

medium stage: 31 to 60 seconds 60 points

long stage: 60 to 90 seconds 90 points

ridiculous long stage: 90 to 120 seconds 120 points

really ridiculous long stage: 120 or more seconds 150 points

Sounds great!!! Now.....how do you base the time run??? ave shooter?? worst shooter?? Best shooter???

Or....the worst case....ave time done during the match.....bad.....no one knows where they stand till the end.

And THAT'S the burr!! Again.....leave it up to the MD/RM for their best guess

In all reality.....Hit factor (points/sec) and target points may tend to make more sense if you can simplify the paper target scoring.

Or....just leave it all up to the MD.....the good good matches, people keep going to.

Tim

Edited August 2, 2014 by TRUBL