IDPA REVOLVER

[Ted Murphy]

Pa state match is the 3rd weekend in July. Fee's on us if you want to come.

Ontelaunee is a haven of hard core revolver shooters, you'll enjoy yourself quite a bit. Most of the guys dont't teven own autos. Though ironically, the gang set up some seriously tough stages for wheelguns. Guess they wanted the challenge.

Admittedly as md I don't shoot this one for score so we could not have any kind of challenge, so this would be more of a social/friendship thing.

We had guys come from from as far away as Tx and Ut last year. It's a pretty good time.

Ted

[redmist10]

Thanks to the efforts of Bill, Joyce, and the countless others behind the scenes that have patiently listened to our comments, complaints, and consternations; I truly believe that the irregularities and imbalances of the SSR and ESR

division(s) have been fixed to a satisfactory and very usable degree.

True to my word, I will continue my “crusade” to raise the SSR and ESR divisions to record setting levels!

Understandably, there will still be some mulling over of the fine points concerning equipment, etc. but all things considered we have a workable rulebook concerning these two divisions. TONS better than original and much better than the first draft of revisions.

Thanks Bill and Joyce, etc. for your efforts .

[Shoepop]

So when are they going to issue an addendum on revolver weights, lengths, where to measure from etc. if they are to change ? A LOT of folks in limbo !

[Matthew_Mink]

I don't have a dog in this fight at all, but everytime I read Ted's idea of 7 and 8 shot Revolvers in SSP, I think that's the best idea and solution I have read so far. It keeps the Revolver divisions fair, and it also gives a place for the 7 and 8 shot guys to play.

As a comparison, USPSA Production opened up that division for Revolver shooters.

[BadShot]

Why not let the 8 shot revolvers shoot in CDP? They can only load 8+1. If both are shooting 165 power factor that's a pretty level playing field.

Skip

[Shoepop]

My .02 is that if 7-8 shots in SSP they are down 3-4 @ the start and 2-3 thereafter and that won't fly. NO WAY will they be competitive. Simple solution is add X amount of time to moon clippers, X amount per reload. A stage that has 2 reloads add X time. It would not be much time added, 10ths.

[Bear23]

I think you should be able to shoot your 8 shot in SSP and ESR. I can shoot an 8 shot in USPSA production, or put optics on it and shoot open..

If i can shoot a Glock 21 in 3 Divisions, I sure as hell should be able to shoot a 627 in multiple Divisions.

RM

[JohnRodriguez]

Do you guys really think that the 8 shot 38 super will be the way to go in ESR. Wont the 165 power factor in that gun make the recoil to much. I shoot IPSC mainly and I have a 4" 625 that I use for IDPA. 165 PF in a 625 is pretty manageable, even in a 4". Unless you are going to load a heavy bullet for the super, I would think the muzzle flip wold be pretty strong. Just my 2cents.

Tom Mainus

Hey Tom

you are very correct on the recoil issue with making 165pf with 38 super, I would beat good money that the people who are claiming that 165 in a 4" barrel is no problem have never shot a big match running 160gr bullets going 1070fps. The gun I ran last year was a 6-shot S&W 627 with a 5.5" barrel, the gun weighs in at 48 oz, and you will feel the recoil at the end of the day shooting a USPSA match, you also run slower splits (.22-.23's). By the way my load is a 160gr Billy Bullet with 6.0gr VVn340 in a 38special case for that gun.

The way to go in ESR would be a 625, you can't beat the reload time and the impulse from the recoil is way lower that trying it with a 8-shot making 165pf.

[Bones]

I can tell you that 165000 PF loads of 158 or 180 gr 357s are stiff from a 4" 586 or 28. I believe the 625 will still be king.

As an aside - As an avid SSR shooter (19 w/speedloaders & 38 Special +P+) who strongly supported/supports the new ESR division - and took/is willingly taking a LOT of crap from downloaded 625 & 610 shooters for doing so - I think it's very interesting to watch soon-to-be ESR shooters have to deal with the percieved equipment advantage of a 7 or 8-shot gun. The solution some of them are quickly coming to is trying to find some other place for them to go. That is very interesting indeed.

Keep smiling and shooting those wheelguns -

Craig

[Brian Gonsalves]

Next time you talk to her, ask her where the XXXX you find 4" .38 Supers....I dare say she might have to cut down some of those pretty 6 or 8" models.

That's the question I'd like answered?

Also, when we talk about major power factor. How about it in a Performance Center 686 .38 Super!

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

As an aside - As an avid SSR shooter (19 w/speedloaders & 38 Special +P+) who strongly supported/supports the new ESR division - and took/is willingly taking a LOT of crap from downloaded 625 & 610 shooters for doing so -

One thing quite obvious in this is your Model 19 is a 357Magnum revolver.

It is also obvious by your statemnent you are not shooting full power loads either but instead choose the 38spl loads. Curious my friend

Sand Bagger

Gary

[Buff87]

So what about speed loader holders? Also do you really want to cut down a 627? The shortest I know of is the 5" 357 except for the 327 which weighs 21 oz and would be a bear for 165 pf.

[roundgunner]

bones,,,, As an aside - As an avid SSR shooter (19 w/speedloaders & 38 Special +P+) who strongly supported/supports the new ESR division - and took/is willingly taking a LOT of crap from downloaded 625 & 610 shooters for doing so - I think it's very interesting to watch soon-to-be ESR shooters have to deal with the percieved equipment advantage of a 7 or 8-shot gun. The solution some of them are quickly coming to is trying to find some other place for them to go. That is very interesting indeed.

did you forget the 610 has been forced to find some other place to play?

Harry Simonson Said S&W WC will be shot under new rules. others say 610 will be allowed. what do you get ready with?

610 165 pf

610 125 pf

or a 2 inch 20 oz 625-10 at 165 pf (ouch)

i really dont have any problem with any 7 or 8 shot revolvers shooting this class and i will probably get a heavy 4 inch in 357 when available if it looks like it will stay legal in idpa for a year or two

been thinking about trying to get 165pf with my 2 inch useing bluedot! love those fire balls!!!

[Ted Murphy]

It is also obvious by your statemnent you are not shooting full power loads either but instead choose the 38spl loads. Curious my friend

FWIW I carry .38+P's and not .357 magnums myself. Even when I'm carrying my 66 instead of my 15.

Started after I tried to load a J frame with magnums one day. They did not fit too well. Decided carrying the same load in all my guns might not be a bad idea. I usually carry a backup J frame and now my speedstrips work for both guns. I tried carrying magnums in the cylinder and specials as reloads but decided that was a little more complicated than I felt like dealing with.

Though for S&G I've been carring a 625 for the past few days with two half moonclips in the watch pocket of my jeans.

Ted

[rwmagnus]

I can tell you that 165000 PF loads of 158 or 180 gr 357s are stiff from a 4" 586 or 28. I believe the 625 will still be king.

As an aside - As an avid SSR shooter (19 w/speedloaders & 38 Special +P+) who strongly supported/supports the new ESR division - and took/is willingly taking a LOT of crap from downloaded 625 & 610 shooters for doing so - I think it's very interesting to watch soon-to-be ESR shooters have to deal with the percieved equipment advantage of a 7 or 8-shot gun. The solution some of them are quickly coming to is trying to find some other place for them to go. That is very interesting indeed.

Keep smiling and shooting those wheelguns -

Craig

Bones I don't think you've even started to take the "crap" yet. Something tells me it's going to get worse for you.

Funny how you support a division you don't shoot as well as rules that force many to purchase alot of new gear just to conform with new rules which seem to get worse with each revision.

Oh yea welcome to the forum.

[TractorTed]

Bones I don't think you've even started to take the "crap" yet. Something tells me it's going to get worse for you.

I think I've finally figured one thing out, and it is this: Arguing about ESR & SSR with bones is like wrestling a pig in the mud. Sooner or later you'll realize the pig enjoys it.

[redmist10]

Thanks to the efforts of Bill, Joyce, and the countless others behind the scenes that have patiently listened to our comments, complaints, and consternations; I truly believe that the irregularities and imbalances of the SSR and ESR

division(s) have been fixed to a satisfactory and very usable degree.

True to my word, I will continue my “crusade” to raise the SSR and ESR divisions to record setting levels!

Understandably, there will still be some mulling over of the fine points concerning equipment, etc. but all things considered we have a workable rulebook concerning these two divisions. TONS better than original and much better than the first draft of revisions.

Thanks Bill and Joyce, etc. for your efforts .

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

It is also obvious by your statemnent you are not shooting full power loads either but instead choose the 38spl loads.  Curious my friend

FWIW I carry .38+P's and not .357 magnums myself. Even when I'm carrying my 66 instead of my 15.

Ted

Great Ted, but IDPA has proven it has nothing to do with what you carry. The rules are set for competition. I carry a 325 PD with the Blade Tech carriers.

Shooting a revolver designed for 357 Mag and shooting 38spl equates very well with my friend BONES' philosophy of downloaded 45ACP.

Ted, I think you hit the bulls eye with the mud comment.

As far as S&W, ROUNDGUNNER, I suggest you get your information from the letter you will be getting from the S&W staff. It should be in your mail box today or tomorrow from what I have been told by a very reliable source.

I think this whole IDPA thing has been well beaten and as a group, we are not going to change anything.

My final comment on the moon clip issue is support those that support you. see:

http://www.moonclip.com/new.htm

[jkelly]

Great Ted, but IDPA has proven it has nothing to do with what you carry. The rules are set for competition. RGS

So true, so true.

I think it's disingenuous to advocate moving the clip guns into ESR, to shoot against 8 round revolvers, under the "guise" of leveling the playing field.

I think it's hypocritical to advocate the same if you benefit form it.

Respectfully,

jdkelly

[Ted Murphy]

..and btw, good for you Ted, new you'd come around to the big bores...

I've had it a while. Granted it took S&W 6 months to make it right.

I've been lugging that beast around these past few days in response to an argument with a friend over weather or not you could carry an 4" steel N frame all day or not.

It's a PIA. With the backup & other accessories I'm lugging like 70 ounces of crap on my belt. Though with a Desantis pancake holster it actually conceals under a t shirt. was suprised at that. Though for most of last night I was wishing I had a Glock on. Or Suspenders.

Might use it to shoot ESR for a while since some people think my advocation of the 2 revolver divisions means I don't want to play against the moonguns- figured I'd give them something new to talk about. Only thing about that is .45 bullets cost a HECK of a lot more to buy- which is why I love 9mm and .38 so much.

Ted

[Bones]

RGS my friend et. al., I carry 38 Special +P+s in my model 19. If you stuck around last Sunday you'd have seen me switch my ammo to hollow point Federals and walk out the door to go home. No holster change, no speedloader change, no vest change.

I don't see the magnums as an advantage. I like the 19 because of the balance and shrouded ejector rod. I put magnums in it when I take it as a back up hunting. Besides, I'm very sensitive.

You tell me what's sandbagging - a 38 Special loaded to the edge of it's capacity (carried for many years in this county by lots of people wearing blue, loaded with speedloaders and responsible for lots of horizontal criminals) or a 45 ACP loaded to levels nearing the bottom edge of safe. You pick the stock service revolver. C'mon boys you can do better than that.

Bring on the crap. I'm ready. I think it's pretty amusing actually. How can more divsions to use the same guns in be bad?

I didn't advocate the change because I benefited. I advocated and support the change because it's right. Where I come from, that's honorable.

The WCs will be run under the "old rules". That's unfortunate. What better place to have a new revolver divsion than S&W?

I'll buy you downtrodden ESR guys a beer in Springfield - Tractor Ted will make sure I'm highly visible. Hey - will you need sippy cups or can you use stock service mugs?

Best Regards and keep shooting those wheel guns - it's a round world after all -

Bones

[COF]

If you read Bill N's orginal post, I believe you'll see the crux of the issue.

We will continue to have ESR and SSR. I asked for a lower power factor in ESR but he didn't agree.  He said 38 supers should be able to make power factor OK, but 9mm's should shoot in SSR.

You can take an 8 shot S&W .357 magnum, cut it for moon clips and continue to use .357 magnum ammo loaded in moon clips.

Notice that Bill Wilson doesn't say .38 Supers will make power factor, but should. As an experienced "barracks lawyer", that indicates to me that he doesn't know for sure.

Also the comment that "9mm's should shoot in SSR" Does this mean if you shoot a 9mm MOONCLIP gun you get to shoot it in SSR? I thought the idea was to separate moonclips and speedloaders. So we're making an exception to that rule rather than admitting that the 165 PF for all moonclip guns is bogus.

Now all of a sudden you get to modify guns so you can shoot in two divisions. That runs counter to everything that IDPA has done from the beginning.

It gets curiouser and curiouser

Jerry

[Duane Thomas]

Moonclips might be a slight advantage over speedloaders to a novice (but then a bulky N-frame isn't a beginners gun either) but two extra rounds is a monumental advantage - Novice or Master.

Y'know, I'm not convinced that's true. The .45s should have softer recoil that the .38 Supers, which are after all running .357 Magnum ballistics. And .45s should also be faster to reload. Fat, round .45s just fall into chambers. The narrower, longer .38 Supers are going to be much more difficult to align sufficiently that they insert smoothly. Bill Wilson has stated he believes the faster reloading of the .45s will offset the extra rounds of the .38 Super moonguns, and so in the end it'll be a wash. When you add in the .45s' controllability advantage, I believe it'll become more than a wash and .45s will be the guns of choice for winners in ESR. Time will tell.

Also shooters with the skill level necessary to win aren't going to be doing much "cleaning up." The key to shooting a revolver well, in IDPA or USPSA/IPSC, is to make every shot count. That statement comes from no less than Jerry Miculek when I interviewd him at the 2002 Factory Gun National Championships.

[Duane Thomas]

Also the comment that "9mm's should shoot in SSR" Does this mean if you shoot a 9mm MOONCLIP gun you get to shoot it in SSR? I thought the idea was to separate moonclips and speedloaders. So we're making an exception to that rule rather than admitting that the 165 PF for all moonclip guns is bogus.

Where did you get the statement that "9mms should shoot in SSR"? I could certainly stand to be educated here; my impression was that SSR guns de facto could not be reloaded via moonclips.

Now all of a sudden you get to modify guns so you can shoot in two divisions.

How do you figure? You're going to have a gun that fires with speedloaders and moonclips? You can modify an already existent gun to use moonclips for ESR use, but once you do that it's a dedicated ESR piece.

[revchuck]

How do you figure? You're going to have a gun that fires with speedloaders and moonclips? You can modify an already existent gun to use moonclips for ESR use, but once you do that it's a dedicated ESR piece.

Duane - Some of the moonclip conversions still permit the gun to be used without moonclips, retaining the ability to load singly or with speedloaders. A six shot M686 or GP100 so modified would be legal for both.