Why is recreating a gun on the Production Gun List against the rules?

[EngineerEli]

Hey Everyone,

So here is the question that has been bugging me for a while. Why is it against the USPSA Production rules to recreate a gun from the production gun list (lets abbreviate with PGL). I can't exactly find the wording in the current rule book but I know I have heard it many times here and elsewhere that this is not "legal".

My examples:

Stock II - My unicorn production gun would be one of the Australian long barreled EAA Stock II's (on the PGL) with all the goodies from the Xtreme Stock II (also on the PGL). So why couldn't you simply get a limited in 9mm remove the magwell and swap out the single action parts with the double action parts. The limited is identical to the long barreled Stock II, except with single action only trigger, markings on the slide and 4 holes in the frame for the option to mount an optic, no functional difference. I would also be able to shoot this gun in limited or open with a separate barrel, and it is much easier to get your hands on this way than finding one of the Australian version Stock II's.

Glock 34/35 - If you all ready have a G35 and you are able to get an upper half from a G34 for use with production, why should that be outlawed? This situation goes for any platform that has interchangeable lowers and uppers.

My logic:

If you can lesson the number of complete guns the shooter has to have to compete in different divisions whats so wrong with that? Also, as long as nothing done is giving the shooter an unfair advantage what is the problem? What exact working in the rules prohibits the above examples?

Edited July 2, 2014 by EngineerEli

[Cy Soto]

The philosophy behind it is that, for example, "Glock has never sold a G35 with a 9mm upper." Yes, I know they have produced and sold thousands of G34 but that is a different model.

It's is silly and it relays in the honor system but it's the rule (not that everyone follows them all the time).

[EngineerEli]

I guess my question is why should it even be frowned upon... It is silly and it is not putting anyone at a disadvantage. It would just seem like it would make more sense to allow such a thing with out it 'breaking and rule honor system or not'.

Its almost like the magazine rule, you must have no more than 10 rounds in the magazine at the time the buzzer sounds, even if you come to the line with 11 in your mag, or pull a Barny from your pocket. Why cant the production rule read something to the effect of, 'the gun must be from the production gun list or identical in a way that provides no competitive advantage to a gun from the list.' (I'm really terrible at rule book wording but hopefully you get the idea) It really just comes down to how much money you have or the connections you have to buy/make the gun with the correct markings, when there are more efficient and cheaper ways of getting to the same gun with the same details and features.

[Cy Soto]

I understand and empathize your frustration. Production rules can sometimes be a muddy mess of individual interpretations. Creating uniformity of rules and regulations is never an easy task; especially for a sport such as this one which is still evolving.

[lcs]

Hey Everyone,

So here is the question that has been bugging me for a while. Why is it against the USPSA Production rules to recreate a gun from the production gun list (lets abbreviate with PGL). I can't exactly find the wording in the current rule book but I know I have heard it many times here and elsewhere that this is not "legal".

My examples:

Stock II - My unicorn production gun would be one of the Australian long barreled EAA Stock II's (on the PGL) with all the goodies from the Xtreme Stock II (also on the PGL). So why couldn't you simply get a limited in 9mm remove the magwell and swap out the single action parts with the double action parts. The limited is identical to the long barreled Stock II, except with single action only trigger, markings on the slide and 4 holes in the frame for the option to mount an optic, no functional difference. I would also be able to shoot this gun in limited or open with a separate barrel, and it is much easier to get your hands on this way than finding one of the Australian version Stock II's.

Glock 34/35 - If you all ready have a G35 and you are able to get an upper half from a G34 for use with production, why should that be outlawed? This situation goes for any platform that has interchangeable lowers and uppers.

My logic:

If you can lesson the number of complete guns the shooter has to have to compete in different divisions whats so wrong with that? Also, as long as nothing done is giving the shooter an unfair advantage what is the problem? What exact working in the rules prohibits the above examples?

It is really simple. A manufacturer must produce the gun and submit paperwork to USPSA -then the gun meets Prodcution rules.

The word "Production" is the key. Think, off-the-shelf and available to the general public.

[JAFO]

I emailed my AC regarding the increase in modular guns these days and whether there might be any discussion about modifying Production rules to allow them. There are a number of guns now whose frames can accept multiple slide/barrel lengths and calibers, and they could be excellent platforms for switching between Production and Limited without having to buy two complete guns. If you start with the Production-legal version, you can modify it to Limited, but not the other way around. I never got a response.

[MarkCO]

I guess my question is why should it even be frowned upon... It is silly and it is not putting anyone at a disadvantage. It would just seem like it would make more sense to allow such a thing with out it 'breaking and rule honor system or not'.

I understand and empathize your frustration. Production rules can sometimes be a muddy mess of individual interpretations. Creating uniformity of rules and regulations is never an easy task; especially for a sport such as this one which is still evolving.

Cy actually unintentionally answered the question. This rule lessens the "muddy mess". When you go and start allowing mix and match, you get on the slippery slope. If you want to play and tinker, then there are divisions for that. Production division is for guns that anyone can go buy as they are produced by the manufacturer within the limits of the division.

The skill of some gunsmiths and shooters in making race parts is phenomenal. This makes the enforcement easier since the models and limited and an exact specimen can be examined and approved for the division. I certainly hope the BOD does not undo the Division by making it Limited minor.

[EngineerEli]

I'm not saying you could go and put a 6 inch barrel from the hunter onto a stock II lower or anything. You would only be allowed to exactly replicate a gun all ready on the approved gun list. You are all ready allowed to piece part production guns together as it is. Can do whatever you want internally, and you are allowed to change out any parts that are available from the factory on another gun from the production gun list, not to mention grips, sights, barrels of the same length, and more... Just saying.

And I don't think it would ever turn into limited minor. The key ideas that make production division accessible to people are the 10 rd mag capacity, double action first shot, no major power factor, no magwells, not thumb rests, and no excessive customization like machined slides or frames, or full custom builds. I really don't think allowing the modularity to be utilized would take away from anything. Just my opinion...

Edited July 2, 2014 by EngineerEli

[JAFO]

If you were to buy all the individual parts (frame, slide, barrel, etc) for that model and assemble them into a gun you could buy off the shelf, then sure. Internal parts could come from any compatible model as long as they are wholly internal. Internal parts which are externally visible when in battery are OK as long as they come from another gun on the PGL. But you're talking about putting a slide for one model (and marked that way) onto a frame for a different model. That's not a gun you could buy off the shelf.

[bikerburgess]

In your example you want to use a frame that is not the same as the one on the pgl so now you want to get into further muddy waters by saying this one is similar enough where do you draw that firm black line (no room for interpretations)

[Lewiston]

OP: The unfortunate reality is while your intentions are legitimate

others would try to use it to their advantage.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Lewiston

[EngineerEli]

Here are some pictures to clarify my point.

This gun, the 'Stock II L 4.93" barrel 9mm 9X21 (45.85 oz.),' is on the production gun list:

But this one is not, same frame, slide, barrel, and sights. The only difference is the single action trigger lack of a double action disconnector and the magwell, all of which could be changed out as the are available on other production approved guns, and of course the mounting holes on the frame but not competitive advantage there: (Some of the stock II slides from Australia even say Limited on them from the factory)

[bajaholic]

I agree in your specific suggestion it does not make total sense, HOWEVER, the rules are for everyone, not just you. People in general will use whatever advantage they can to win. So by having the rules stating what you cannot do, it makes it fair for everyone.

No matter how you present it, it just does not fit the rule guidelines... As something was told to me earlier today, when I just didn't agree.... Get over it, comply and move on...

[EngineerEli]

I agree in your specific suggestion it does not make total sense, HOWEVER, the rules are for everyone, not just you. People in general will use whatever advantage they can to win. So by having the rules stating what you cannot do, it makes it fair for everyone.

No matter how you present it, it just does not fit the rule guidelines... As something was told to me earlier today, when I just didn't agree.... Get over it, comply and move on...

I kind of figured that would be the general consensus, but I was curious to hear other peoples thoughts on it.

[kneelingatlas]

Yes it's stupid, that's why I shoot Open. Open and Limited are the divisions for people like me and you Eli.

[EngineerEli]

Yes it's stupid, that's why I shoot Open. Open and Limited are the divisions for people like me and you Eli.

Haha, I'm starting to agree with you!

[Rick88]

Production rules are crazy, I'm still trying to fiqure out how a custom shop can take a stock imported factory gun mill and thread the slide and install an external aftermarket threaded bushing and its legal...But you better not shave those finger grooves off of your gen3 glock frame.. :-)

[bc361]

Production rules are crazy, I'm still trying to fiqure out how a custom shop can take a stock imported factory gun mill and thread the slide and install an external aftermarket threaded bushing and its legal...But you better not shave those finger grooves off of your gen3 glock frame.. :-)

Because CZ submitted the documents on the Accu Shadow for USPSA approval. CZ-USA sells CZC modified guns, it would be akin to ZEV modifying Glocks Gen 3 frames and then selling it through Glock. I guess as long as it comes from the factory...

[Parallax3D]

The "firearm" according the the ATF is the frame.

If the gun us not on the PGL, you can't "recreate" one by swapping parts to make it "similar" to a gun that is on the PGL.
A Glock 35 with a 9mm upper is STILL a Glock 35, and as Cy pointed out, Glock never made a 9mm G35.

[Luv2rideWV]

I read the word "interpretation" somewhere above, and it boils down to that. A gamer could create something a little better than anything you could buy off the shelf, and a guy like me would have a hard proving or disproving the legitimacy of it. Then, if the division turned into an arms race, the little guy (like me) would become discouraged because he is operating with obsolete equipment.

I shoot 6-shot major in Revolver division, and the inclusion of the 8-shot minor eliminates a few reloads during a match, so I feel like I'm shooting somewhat obsolete equipment because a shooter of equal skill will beat me over the course of a match solely based upon his equipment, so I can imagine how a guy who can only afford a factory gun would feel when he no longer had a chance of being competitive against a shooter of equal or lesser skill just because of equipment.

The idea of a Production class is pretty cool. It lowers the price of entry into our game. It allows people to participate who otherwise wouldn't. It is kind of an "every man's" class. However - what do I know - I've never shot Production.

[justaute]

Given the human nature, I think it's best to have either "fit-the-box" approach or "strict list" approach. Anything in-between just creates too many issues.

Of course, USPSA barely enforce anything as it is. My opinion is if you don't enforce it, don't have the rule.

[Vlad]

So I always wondered, how does SIGs modular gun (250?) fit into this? I'm pretty sure you can get is a kit with like 3 calibers. Which caliber is it?

[kneelingatlas]

if the division turned into an arms race, the little guy (like me) would become discouraged because he is operating with obsolete equipment.

IF?!? please see exhibit A: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=196038&page=1

The idea of a Production class is pretty cool. It lowers the price of entry into our game. It allows people to participate who otherwise wouldn't. It is kind of an "every man's" class. However - what do I know - I've never shot Production.

That's a quaint idea, but it's just not tenable with such strong market forces.

[kneelingatlas]

Given the human nature, I think it's best to have either "fit-the-box" approach or "strict list" approach. Anything in-between just creates too many issues.

Of course, USPSA barely enforce anything as it is. My opinion is if you don't enforce it, don't have the rule.

:cheers:

[Parallax3D]

So I always wondered, how does SIGs modular gun (250?) fit into this? I'm pretty sure you can get is a kit with like 3 calibers. Which caliber is it?

I think all of the variations are listed in the PGL, so it shouldn't matter in this case. The manufacturer made it that way, as opposed to someone building a "Frankengun."