Shooter Time Verification

[CB45]

You can ask but I'm going to wait until I have given the "Range is clear" before I show it to you. I certainly don't want to stand there have a discussion while you're still holding a loaded gun.

That is reasonable, and it makes sense to not call out the time before the shooter has indicated he is finished by unloading and showing clear (how many times have we heard "if you are finished, .... Blam Blam"), but you may also have to be prepared to back up and show the last split or two if the shooter desires.

After an inadvertent timer problem (bumped or picking up the slide forward and adding 5-8 seconds), I have gotten in the habit of glancing at the timer myself and then showing it to the scorekeeper as I am saying 'if you are finished....'.

While the gun is loaded, I should still have the RO's attention.

Having a discussion with the RO before Make Ready makes the most sense.

Trust but verify...

[StreuB1]

ULSCH - Unload Show Clear and Holster

It is worth it to take the RO class.

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.

8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows:

Oh c'mon I was short cutting for the sake of time.

[CHA-LEE]

I wouldn't mind it if NROI built in a step of physically showing the shooter the time registered on the timer before scoring of the targets starts. Optimally this would be done AFTER the "Range is clear" command is issued. I hate to think that the bad actions of a single RO would call into question the integrity of USPSA RO's in general, but adding a step like this to the official procedure would completely eliminate the chance of this happening in the future.

[Chuck D]

I'll ask, "what was the time" and 99% of the time the RO will show me the display screen of the timer.

[thermobollocks]

You can ask but I'm going to wait until I have given the "Range is clear" before I show it to you. I certainly don't want to stand there have a discussion while you're still holding a loaded gun. Same reason I was taught that if you stop someone you proceed directly through ULASC and ICHDH before discussing with them why you stopped them.

As long as I didn't interfere with the shooter (and therefore am going to offer a reshoot that they must accept or decline before seeing/hearing the time), I hold the timer so the other RO can see it. After that, I'd be happy to let you fiddle with the timer to see splits and shot count.

This is exactly what I like to do/see done. Same goes for holding the timer over the shoulder so it doesn't pick up slide noise and the scorekeeper can enter the time.

[Bill Filiaga]

Don't you guys think that if your timer is picking up slide sounds then it is also picking up echo's...... I always try to verify the time is correct when running good shooters, ie. I make sure the last shot is recorded on the "BANG" and make a mental note of the time before showing the score keeper...... Of course this doesn't always happen with less skill shooters cause I am busy watching them.

When Score keeping and the RO shows me the timer, I also look at the splits sometime you can pick up timer malfunctions if the split don't coincide with what you hear....ie very very short split (echo).... a very long split when the shooters cadence is different could mean brass hitting timer , sounds from the bay over, or RO accidentally causing noise on timer.....either way the situation can be fixed and made fair for the shooter if caught.

[Chuck Anderson]

I try to stick the timer in front of my face as the shooter is finishing the stage. Between me and the shooter so I can watch both. I want to watch the timer picking up that last shot and I also know what that time is. Then as soon as the shooter starts to unload the timer is facing the Scoring RO. Once he's done I call the time and he repeats it. If that time doesn't match what I remember seeing as the last shot, I'm going to take another look at the timer. If he shot a 3 yard target and the last split is 2.5 seconds, and that previous shot is what I remember, he's getting the lower time. If we can't figure it out, reshoot.

[Bill Filiaga]

Chuck, I noticed over the years that the really good experience RO's do this and check the splits......I wish these things would be taught @ RO classes........

[Bwana Six-Gun]

This has been beaten to death, but I will throw in my two cents. I have worked as a CRO at our State match for more years than I like to remember. I have had the same crew for the last several years, with the addition of a new guy the last two. We all work well together with the same routine. After the last shot, ULSC is given and the timer RO holds it over his shoulder for the Clipboard RO to see. Once ULSC is complete the Range Clear is given and the time is called out and repeated by the Clipboard. We have never had a problem with this method.

When the targets are scored, it there is a question, the scoring RO calls me and I make the call. If the shooter does not like it, I ask "Do you want to pull the target and call the RM?". I have called the RM maybe three times in 20 years.

In future, I see myself showing the timer to the shooter after I call Range Clear. I don't want anyone to have any question over what they shot.

As far as requesting a different RO, that has never happened, but I have no problem with it. I know I have had members of my crew say they don't want to RO the "Super Squad" when there is one. When that happens, I take the timer. It's what they pay me the big bucks for .

I hope this blow over quickly, because it calls into question the integrity of all ROs.

[Sarge]

I try to stick the timer in front of my face as the shooter is finishing the stage. Between me and the shooter so I can watch both. I want to watch the timer picking up that last shot and I also know what that time is. Then as soon as the shooter starts to unload the timer is facing the Scoring RO. Once he's done I call the time and he repeats it. If that time doesn't match what I remember seeing as the last shot, I'm going to take another look at the timer. If he shot a 3 yard target and the last split is 2.5 seconds, and that previous shot is what I remember, he's getting the lower time. If we can't figure it out, reshoot.

Same here. I had a brand new CRO on my stage at A5 this week and I promoted the technique of capturing a "mental snapshot" of the timer for the last few shots while still watching the shooter.

[motosapiens]

I try to stick the timer in front of my face as the shooter is finishing the stage. Between me and the shooter so I can watch both. I want to watch the timer picking up that last shot and I also know what that time is. Then as soon as the shooter starts to unload the timer is facing the Scoring RO. Once he's done I call the time and he repeats it. If that time doesn't match what I remember seeing as the last shot, I'm going to take another look at the timer. If he shot a 3 yard target and the last split is 2.5 seconds, and that previous shot is what I remember, he's getting the lower time. If we can't figure it out, reshoot.

Excellent technique, and I echo bill's thought that this technique should be taught in RO seminars. Yes, sometimes timers can pick up echos, especially at a local match where they might have been set super-sensitive the previous weekend for 22 rifles shooting steel challenge, but if you're getting echos, you should probably be noticing them, and probably consider adjusting the sensitivity of the timer.

Much as this situation sucks, it should lead to better procedures, more transparency and increased confidence in our scoring methods.

Edited June 19, 2014 by motosapiens

[LikesToShoot]

While this incident brought to light some need for verifying the RO's time keeping let's not give the scorekeeper a halo to wear. "Error's" can be made there as the targets are being scored and pasted. If you don't have a buddy watch him record targets as they're called out you can get hosed by him more than the RO.

[Julien Boit]

I think the Shotmaxx timer/watch from DAA will become a hot item soon !

[alma]

Video isn't permitted for arbatrations. I kinda of doubt second, unofficial timers would make the list. There will definitely need to be some best practice procedural changes which should be implemented as a result to give everyone confidence in the system.

[motosapiens]

Video isn't permitted for arbatrations. I kinda of doubt second, unofficial timers would make the list. There will definitely need to be some best practice procedural changes which should be implemented as a result to give everyone confidence in the system.

I don't think you would need it so much for arbitration. I highly doubt that this sort of thing is widespread, but a second timer will enhance the confidence of the shooter that the problem doesn't get repeated. Like the shotcoach, I think it would also just be a valuable tool to check your own splits and transitions in a real stage, and compare them to your training times, and see where you have time to gain.

[Flexmoney]

Can I request to see the timer before I ULSC?

The rulebook doesn't explicitly say I can or can't. Only that the course of fire is completed after Range is Clear.

I think the way to go there is to let the RO know that you won't sign the score sheet unless you see the time. (How else can you verify and sign off?)

The RM has to come and check off on any unsigned scores sheets. Having to do that once or twice would get the RM to tell the RO to let you see.

[MarkCO]

I have not "signed" a score sheet at the last several majors I shot, and not for 2 years at locals. Using practiscore, it makes that approach a little more difficult Kyle.

[ktm300]

Like Brit said--I'll want you to go thru the ULSC and put the gun in the holster, but I'll happily show you the timer, once the scorekeeper has written down the time. Usually, that happens during the ULSC portion when I'm running a shooter, because I point the timer at the scorekeeper while I'm watching the competitor. When I give "range is clear," I read the time off of the timer and the scorekeeper repeats it back to me. If the competitor looks at the timer, he/she should see the same time being read back.

I picked up this habit pattern from a friend of mine, and I use it every time.

Best practice right there.

+1

[motosapiens]

I have not "signed" a score sheet at the last several majors I shot, and not for 2 years at locals. Using practiscore, it makes that approach a little more difficult Kyle.

wait, what? you don't write down backup scores when using practiscore at a major match?

yikes!

[MarkCO]

I have not "signed" a score sheet at the last several majors I shot, and not for 2 years at locals. Using practiscore, it makes that approach a little more difficult Kyle.

wait, what? you don't write down backup scores when using practiscore at a major match?

yikes!

Not what I said.

[motosapiens]

I have not "signed" a score sheet at the last several majors I shot, and not for 2 years at locals. Using practiscore, it makes that approach a little more difficult Kyle.

wait, what? you don't write down backup scores when using practiscore at a major match?

yikes!

Not what I said.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

Edited June 19, 2014 by motosapiens

[ZackJones]

I have not "signed" a score sheet at the last several majors I shot, and not for 2 years at locals. Using practiscore, it makes that approach a little more difficult Kyle.

How did you go about shooter verification of time/score then?

[Flexmoney]

I have not "signed" a score sheet at the last several majors I shot, and not for 2 years at locals. Using practiscore, it makes that approach a little more difficult Kyle.

You know...I was going to edit my post earlier from "the way" to "a way". Thanks for pointing out why.

[Vlad]

You know, I've been privately and semi-publicly harping on about the need for a "USPSA nook", basically a practisore device that doesn't depend on the refresh cycle of book sellers.

The more I think about this, I think the action sports, all of them (USPSA, IDPA, 3gn, etc, etc) should get together and talk to some manufacturers and develop of a technical solution to some of these problems. A well designed system that allows reliable communications between a seprate timer, a scoring devices and a display would be very nice, and if designed right you could buy the bits you want when you want, and upgrade components when you need to. On match day you pair the 3 devices for each stage, adhoc wifi can feed the results between the 3 and back to the stats staff.

Yes it would cost money, but what doesn't? If done right, clubs that run multiple disciplines would only need one set and if each component can be replaced (and software upgraded) while maintaining integration then over time the price would be meaningless. It wouldn't be required, but major matches would be an obivious first step. Heck, you could have clubs buy setups like this as major matches rotate to different locations out the Area match money or something.

I know, its a pipe dream, but not one that can't be made reality if the various disciplines make an effort to cooperate.

[MarkCO]

And before you know it, we are going to have to have encryption and passwords on the devices so that the forensic trail can be verified. Two things I asked for in Practiscore is a timestamp on score entries and a password required option to change a score.