bayougump Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 From what I understand USPSA considers 9mm and 38 to be "the same caliber" in some sense and that's why you can put a 9mm barrel on a 38 frame and still be Production legal. This stemmed from the $3,000 Stock III that came up for sale here I guess around a month ago and had 38 on slide but was in 9mm and Amidon had said in not those exact words that USPSA considers them the same in this sense. Take it FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I just re-read that thread, maybe I missed something. Doesn't seem decided at all. On one hand you had some people saying according to the rule book (and Amidon?), 38 Super = 9mm for caliber definition. Others say that because its a different cartridge, they cannot be swapped even if the pistol is offered in that other cartridge from the factory. I still don't see an official ruling posted online, or in the rulebook on this. Amidon is stepping down this fall, possibly, correct? Are we going to go by dog eared copies of old interpretive emails, or the rulebook and published guidance? I know its illegal to put a 40 barrel in a G20 10mm, for example, but perhaps that's because Glock never offered a .40 in the G20 frame. I just want something in writing that's binding, and then I'll run right out and buy a Stock III in 38 Super for $1K. I'd be all over it. If its legal. For real, not because we want it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velo918 Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I'm not arguing at all. I just want everyone to be on the same page, be comfortable with the ruling, and put this to bed. This is from Amidon: After discussion with the USPSA President on this issue, it was determined that there is no difference, really. Caliber could be interpreted as the width of the bullet, more so than the actual round. This would allow the Tanfoglio Stock III to have a slide that states 38 and a barrel of 9mm. As the rules state caliber/cartridge .38 cal./9X19 .0354. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 So by that rationale you could definitely buy a 10mm and go .40 right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Can someone publish the actual email out letter this is stated in? Want a copy for my range bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I saw this earlier and sent the following email with the response I received John, I was reading a forum post with the following quote attributed to you “After discussion with the USPSA President on this issue, it was determined that there is no difference, really. Caliber could be interpreted as the width of the bullet, more so than the actual round.This would allow the Tanfoglio Stock III to have a slide that states 38 and a barrel of 9mm. As the rules state caliber/cartridge .38cal./9X19 .0354.” I know there was a previous ruling that stated for production division you could not change cartridge or caliber, I don’t see this still posted and or included in the latest rule book, and the rule book does define caliber as the diameter of the bullet not the cartridge that holds it and cartridge case is defined but not listed in the production division rules for barrel replacement. So is it now legal to change the cartridge as long as we don’t change the caliber (bullet diameter) of the barrel ? for example a 38 super to 9mm or a 10mm to 40sw Thank you The barrel change was primarily for those who wanted to change a Glock 35 to a Glock 34 by simply changing the barrel, this is still not allowed, and you still have to keep in mind that appendix D4 item 21.3 states same length. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I did do one bit of checking that I think firms up the position that it is now legal. the earlier clarification published on the USPSA web site is no longer there and the New rule book still just says. BARRELS: Current rules remain in effect - you may replace the barrel with an OEM or aftermarket barrel which is of the same length, contour and caliber as the original barrel for that model of gun. Special Notes/Clarifications: For purposes of this interpretation, a barrel within +/- 0.1” of OEM is “the same length”. so as long as the Caliber is the same 9x21, 9x23,and 357 sig heck even a 9x25 pop a 9mm barrel in and go to town (or a 10mm to 40sw) swap to your hearts content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) So I guess what the rule book is missing is a definition of terms, to define what they mean by caliber. I mean WE know what it's supposed to mean, and Amidon does... But do you want to chance every r.o. match director, and chrono guy knows? I still want a copy of an actual email from Amidon with header and email addresses, dates, etc. I can post anything I want on a forum and print it.... Just saying. Edited July 2, 2014 by sfinney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 So by that rationale you could definitely buy a 10mm and go .40 right? I would think that as long as the manufacturer offered one 40 from factory.... as well. Or not, who knows. Guess by the literal definition i the last few posts, we could do a .40 barrel in a G20 in Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougump Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 So I guess what the rule book is missing is a definition of terms, to define what they mean by caliber. I still want a copy of an actual email from Amidon with header and email addresses, dates, etc. I can post anything I want on a forum and print it.... Just saying. Email Amidon, I'm sure he'd be happy to provide you with the info that's posted here Sent from my flux capacitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) Ok, that's part of the problem with this whole process. Why should everyone have to email him individually, for individual guidance when if it was published we would all have it? Not to mention I have seen multiple occasions where different people have conflicting emails on the same subject from Amidon, depending on how the wording of the question was tweaked. Can we establish a sticky section where people can post word doc versions or pictures of emails from Amidon for reference? I am on board with the 9mm in 38S guns for the record. Just wish it was easier to be iron clad on ALL the Production rules interpretations over the years. Update : I now have an email copy from the Amidon quote posted above. Thank you! Edited July 2, 2014 by sfinney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 So I guess what the rule book is missing is a definition of terms, to define what they mean by caliber. I mean WE know what it's supposed to mean, and Amidon does... But do you want to chance every r.o. match director, and chrono guy knows? I still want a copy of an actual email from Amidon with header and email addresses, dates, etc. I can post anything I want on a forum and print it.... Just saying. From the rule book Caliber . . . . . . . . . . . . .The diameter of a bullet measured in millimeters (or thousandths of an inch). Cartridge case . . . . . . . . .The main body of a round, which contains all component parts. the rule book says in production I must show my modification to be legal (D4-21) then D4-21.3 says 21.3 After-market slides and barrels – provided they are the same length, contour and caliber as original factory standard. per the definitions in the rule book, a 10mm gun with a 40sw barrel is legal as is a 38super gun with a 9mm barrel or a 357 sig gun with a 9mm barrel but NOT a 40sw gun with a 9mm barrel the Ruling previously published on the USPSA web site linking Caliber and Cartridge in production division is no longer there so it is no longer part of the rules. I don't think we will get a published ruling on this as the way the rules are written the modification is legal the previously published ruling was what made it illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I get all that. Yes the literal definition of caliber is in the book. Agreed it appears to be written in plain English. Problem is how many people can't read English properly! I just see the possibility for to many range officials who remember the old wording/rule and have be convinced of the new intent, with definition of caliber being in the rule book, and all.... but written guidance that what the NROI interprets "caliber" to be for barrel swaps specifically IS 9mm = 38s, would should clear it up. No ambiguity. I've had a Stock II 9mm and a Limited Pro 9mm, but I stupidly sold my unicorns, just wasn't shooting Production much. At regular prices. I looked hard and low to find 9mm versions, and paid to much for one of them. So the thought of a Stock III in 38s with a second 9mm barrel, and maybe some Extreme parts sounds pretty cool. But who am I kidding, I'd just sell it. ;( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nealio Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 They are engraved tanfoglio...I can't imagine EAA has anything to do with the production of these grips but I could be wrong. Tanfoglio doesn't list them on their site at all. KArnzen> Can you let us know where that pic came from? I tried searching but can't find those grips anywere, even on EAA's site. The new Stock IIs my local dealer got in have these new grips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KArnzen Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 (edited) They are engraved tanfoglio...I can't imagine EAA has anything to do with the production of these grips but I could be wrong. Tanfoglio doesn't list them on their site at all. KArnzen> Can you let us know where that pic came from? I tried searching but can't find those grips anywere, even on EAA's site. The new Stock IIs my local dealer got in have these new grips Ditto - I am a dealer (Arnzen Arms in Minnesota); those pictures I posted were from a Stock II 9mm that we recently received and sold. Looks like those are the default factory grips on the latest batch of Stock II's. The Stock III's we received had the older style wood grips. Edited July 4, 2014 by KArnzen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Question/s Which are the most desirable for Production, Stock II's or III's? Large or Small? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Question/s Which are the most desirable for Production, Stock II's or III's? Large or Small? It's much of a muchness and personal preference comes into it. On paper the stock II is the better gun and if it matters I believe Eric g (who can have whatever he wants) shoots a stock II with extreme parts in production. At the end of the day the large frame/small frame makes little difference if shooting 9mm (probably the preferred cartridge for prod div). The main diff is the stock II has the cone barrel (bull barrel) with poly rifling. The III has a standard barrel with conventional rifling (s3 extreme has poly rifling). In frames the 3 has a rail. The balance is a little different between the two. Try both if you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gennaro Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) On Gunbroker now, EAA Witness Stock III Tanfoglio Custom 9MM They want to start it at $ 2000.00 and buy it now at $ 2500.00 I'm not sure , maybe that price is in line with what has been done to the gun. Edited July 8, 2014 by gennaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhf Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Must have took it down, even still the price of these things is getting crazy. Accu-shadows are like 1700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceman2733 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Must have took it down, even still the price of these things is getting crazy. Accu-shadows are like 1700 I am glad i am not the only person that looks at the prices of these guns and say wow that is beyind high these guns go for more then custom built 1911 crazy if you ask me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 hm, it makes the stock III price here of $1420 USD seem cheap. hell even the stock III extreme are only just under $1900 USD brand new here. and that's in the rarest of the rare 9mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGus Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) Gunbroker ad for the Stock III 9mm. I'm guessing this is the same one that was listed in the Benos classifieds, but I don't know that for sure. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=427641933 Edited July 9, 2014 by JGus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velo918 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 You are incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 That's definitely a factory hammer, not an EG hammer as stated in the ad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velo918 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 good catch, just changed it, the other one I sold had the Eric hammer and I just copy/pasted the description Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now