What is the best in zeroing , bench or off hand ?

[nexus]

Which is better and in what distance ?

[Dirty Rod]

The idea behind zeroing is to find absolute POI of the gun/load combination and make sure that it matches the POA. Doing from a bench with a rest takes the shooter's bad habits and inconsistencies out of the equation.

The distance is personal preference but folks tend to zero at the range that they shoot mist often. For pistols, 25 yards is common as the POI won't vary too much from 5 to 25 yards however lots of folks pick something in the middle. For rifles, 100 is common but I've got ARs at 25 and 50 and bolt guns at 100 and 200 because those are the most common shooting distances.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Dirty Rod

[Steve RA]

Bench for establishing group size, load development, offhand for centering whatever size group you can muster on the desired target.

[nexus]

The idea behind zeroing is to find absolute POI of the gun/load combination and make sure that it matches the POA. Doing from a bench with a rest takes the shooter's bad habits and inconsistencies out of the equation.

The distance is personal preference but folks tend to zero at the range that they shoot mist often. For pistols, 25 yards is common as the POI won't vary too much from 5 to 25 yards however lots of folks pick something in the middle. For rifles, 100 is common but I've got ARs at 25 and 50 and bolt guns at 100 and 200 because those are the most common shooting distances.

Thank you so much for the info

[nexus]

Bench for establishing group size, load development, offhand for centering whatever size group you can muster on the desired target.

Now i know its been bothering me for a while since im new in open division . Thank you so much for the info

[Hi-Power Jack]

You have to be careful - no matter whether you sight in for 15, 25 or 35 yards,

if the target is real close, you're going to be hitting 2-3" low (because the sight

sits 2-3" above the bore), unless you have a sideways mount.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: 18 yards seems to work the best for me with a Cheely sideways mount and a C-More. You should know where it hits at 3,10 25 and 50 yards. Welcome to open-have fun. Thanks, Eric

[nexus]

May be i will be zeroing in 18 yards because mostly the distance of the target here in PI is 18-19 yards

[Parallax3D]

Bench for establishing group size, load development, offhand for centering whatever size group you can muster on the desired target.

If the gun can hit then center of the target from the bench, if you are not on-center when shooting offhand, it's not the gun's fault, it's your technique.

[Steve RA]

Most people don't hit the same place on a target offhand as from a bench or Ransom Rest. I know I used to sight in @ 100yds slowfire as I tend to pull the gun down slightly when shooting fast.

[40S&W]

I sight-in from the bench at 25 yds. Then shoot off hand at 25 & 15 yds. and make the necessary corrections if needed for my style of shooting (good or bad). Works for me.

[gose]

Like said above. Bench for load development, off hand for zero.

I prefer to zero at 50y, as the trajectory will peak at less than +0.5".

[klee]

I zero off-hand at around 15-20 yards, seems to work fine.

[aaronsdmf]

I zero off-hand at around 15-20 yards, seems to work fine.

Same here.

I figure its better feedback for the shooter getting offhand groups/zero because that's the actual group you will get, regardless of

how well your pistol shoots off a bench.

I would assume you have to adjust a zero off a bench anyways due poi/poa shift to account for

1,000,000 things that happen when holding a pistol.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Check on a bench for loads and gun condition then shoot off hand to see how good you are. Thanks, Eric

[Parallax3D]

Like I said, if the gun shoots POI=POA off the bench, then changing the zero off-hand is only masking problems in you shooting technique.

[Dirty Rod]

Like I said, if the gun shoots POI=POA off the bench, then changing the zero off-hand is only masking problems in you shooting technique.

Agree. My group size may increase offhand but the zero doesn't change.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Dirty Rod

[aaronsdmf]

I never have shot off a bench, if you are trying to problem solve an issue, shooting off a bench would give you answers. I always figured things like grip pressure, how the gun is resting on a bench = change poi/poa

Edited May 2, 2014 by aaronsdmf

[Ross Carter]

Like I said, if the gun shoots POI=POA off the bench, then changing the zero off-hand is only masking problems in you shooting technique.

True. If you want to improve your shooting ability the gun must put the shots where the sights are aimed within the accuracy limitations of the gun. If you adjust to allow for problems in your technique you will be reinforcing the bad technique. Just as an example, if you are having trigger control problems and pulling shots low left, with the pistol adjusted to compensate for this the only time you will hit the center of a plate is when you are jerking the trigger. If you do execute a good trigger press you will get an edger or miss resulting in negative feedback for doing it right.

Take out the human error as much as you can by sighting in off a rest, then you know when the shots are not hitting where you want them to there is no question as to the reason. It's no secret that calling your shots is one of the most important skills to obtain in order to improve your shooting both for speed and accuracy. You can't correctly call your shots if your gun is not shooting where it's pointing IMHO.

[caspian38]

What MOA dot are you using ...? I shoot a 16 MOA so I sight in at 12.5 yards and my gun shoots in the dot to 50 ( it's 8 inches at 50 though). At 12.5 yards my dot still covers like 2 inches. Any further and it's hard to find the center of the group compared to center of the dot. I always sight in free hand ,but if your not shooting a ragged single hole try the bench.

If its an 8 MOA ( pretty standard) it covers 1 inch at 12.5 yards which is about the size of group you want.

If its 4 MOA ( get a bigger dot)... C-more sells replaceable diodes in,4 ,8,12, or 16 ( maybe more ).

Edited May 8, 2014 by caspian38

[kneelingatlas]

Like I said, if the gun shoots POI=POA off the bench, then changing the zero off-hand is only masking problems in you shooting technique.

You can't correctly call your shots if your gun is not shooting where it's pointing IMHO.

Calling your shots is the best way to know if your gun is zero'd

I never shoot off a bench because I've never shot off a bench in competition. When you shoot off a bench you're looking through a different part of your eye and your body mechanics are all different.

[jcc7x7]

I'm in the 18 -19 yard club for sight in

Bench for load development and basic sight in

Then fine tune it to your grip, stance, trigger push, etc. All your variables! (and Mine!)

to get the gun to hit where you're pointing it, offhand

IT may take a few trips to check and recheck it

As said: then shooting it from 0 to 50 yds so YOU know where it hits at different ranges. Helps with the head shots and on the low close, angled targets on the ground. I've shot more than one no shoot head on those

[BeerBaron]

Like I said, if the gun shoots POI=POA off the bench, then changing the zero off-hand is only masking problems in you shooting technique.

You can't correctly call your shots if your gun is not shooting where it's pointing IMHO.

Calling your shots is the best way to know if your gun is zero'd

I never shoot off a bench because I've never shot off a bench in competition. When you shoot off a bench you're looking through a different part of your eye and your body mechanics are all different.

bingo! for the guy saying if your zero moves from bench to offhand then you're just covering up shooting problems that is a strange argument. there are totally different body mechanics at play shooting off hand not to mention a different relationship between the sights and your eyes. I don't know anyone who could shoot the same POI off hand as they can off a rest. let alone of a ransom rest that is holding the gun for you.

shooting off the bench is useful to compare group size of different loads. that's all. a ransom rest is even better as it removes everything except the combination of the gun and that particular load you are testing.

to zero the sights you need to zero it how you shoot it. so unless you're carrying around that sandbag or even ransom rest with you in a match you should be zero-ing your sights off hand.

if you set-up your sights off a rest and then go shoot it standing up and off hand I can almost promise it will have a different POI.

as far as distance goes this is a little bit around personal preference but generally zero it not more than 25 yards or so if it's a USPSA type shooting game you are playing. around 18 yards is a fairly common distance. but of course once zero'd (say at 18 yards) then go and shoot a group at 7 yards, 12 yards, 25 yards and even 50 yards to understand the POI shift at those distances. anything less than 7 yards you should be point shooting so no need really to go and shoot a group at 5 yards.

[Ross Carter]

There is a big difference between the goals of becoming a good all around shooter so you can be competitive at The Bianchi and the Steel Challenge, and concentrating on just what is required for USPSA. I admit I'm an old school dinosaur, every one of my hero shooters could stand there and shoot a nice group at 25 or 50 yds and also hose a stage. There may have been some specialized shooters but the guys I admired could do it all and I decided that was the path I would choose. My goals and anyone else's don't have to be the same and whatever you do is all good as I see it, we shoot to have fun and if serious to improve ourselves.

For my NRA Action guns I set my zero off sandbags at 50 yds and verify prone, I never saw a difference if I did my part right. I'm not here to brag but I could clean the plates from 50 yds standing using my sand bagged or prone zero so that was proof enough for me. Same with my Steel challenge gun, same with my USPSA but once 25 yds became the max I just zeroed for that distance. My philosophy has always been to zero for the longest distance and if any hold over\under was necessary for the close ranges, it was easier to judge it up close than far away. Many shooters do it the other way, whatever works for you.

As far as shooting from a rest, or sandbags making a difference because of bio-mechanics or whatever I guess I never shot good enough to see the difference that kind of thing makes with my pistols. If you try to look thru the smudged up part of your glasses you will have problems no matter where you shoot from. I kind of think it's ludicrous to bring up a Ransom Rest as I never have advocated using a Ransom Rest to zero a gun. I've shot a lot of rounds over a Ransom developing loads and accuracy testing, you can't just bolt a pistol in a RR and prove anything, there is a learning curve with it big time but I digress.

I'm not saying I couldn't shoot a good enough offhand group to sight in with, I could do that unless I was having a bad day. I always compare my rested or prone groups with my offhand and if I was shooting well there would be no appreciable difference. I've heard many people say they shot low or high prone, the thing is prone doesn't guarantee accuracy you have to learn to use the position. Shooting from sand bags is the same, It's a skill you can learn or not, not suggesting carrying a sandbag to the match, the purpose is to remove some of the human error so you can check where the gun is actually shooting. The same thing shooting weak hand, the pistol should shoot where the sights are no matter which hands you use, if it doesn't it's because of technique.

Anyway I just wanted to express my experience, if you get anything out of it good, if not all I wasted was a little time.

[BeerBaron]

There is a big difference between the goals of becoming a good all around shooter so you can be competitive at The Bianchi and the Steel Challenge, and concentrating on just what is required for USPSA. I admit I'm an old school dinosaur, every one of my hero shooters could stand there and shoot a nice group at 25 or 50 yds and also hose a stage. There may have been some specialized shooters but the guys I admired could do it all and I decided that was the path I would choose. My goals and anyone else's don't have to be the same and whatever you do is all good as I see it, we shoot to have fun and if serious to improve ourselves.

For my NRA Action guns I set my zero off sandbags at 50 yds and verify prone, I never saw a difference if I did my part right. I'm not here to brag but I could clean the plates from 50 yds standing using my sand bagged or prone zero so that was proof enough for me. Same with my Steel challenge gun, same with my USPSA but once 25 yds became the max I just zeroed for that distance. My philosophy has always been to zero for the longest distance and if any hold over\under was necessary for the close ranges, it was easier to judge it up close than far away. Many shooters do it the other way, whatever works for you.

As far as shooting from a rest, or sandbags making a difference because of bio-mechanics or whatever I guess I never shot good enough to see the difference that kind of thing makes with my pistols. If you try to look thru the smudged up part of your glasses you will have problems no matter where you shoot from. I kind of think it's ludicrous to bring up a Ransom Rest as I never have advocated using a Ransom Rest to zero a gun. I've shot a lot of rounds over a Ransom developing loads and accuracy testing, you can't just bolt a pistol in a RR and prove anything, there is a learning curve with it big time but I digress.

I'm not saying I couldn't shoot a good enough offhand group to sight in with, I could do that unless I was having a bad day. I always compare my rested or prone groups with my offhand and if I was shooting well there would be no appreciable difference. I've heard many people say they shot low or high prone, the thing is prone doesn't guarantee accuracy you have to learn to use the position. Shooting from sand bags is the same, It's a skill you can learn or not, not suggesting carrying a sandbag to the match, the purpose is to remove some of the human error so you can check where the gun is actually shooting. The same thing shooting weak hand, the pistol should shoot where the sights are no matter which hands you use, if it doesn't it's because of technique.

Anyway I just wanted to express my experience, if you get anything out of it good, if not all I wasted was a little time.

Thanks for expanding your philosophy Ross, you make some very good points. Far from being not good enough to tell the difference I'd argue you are probably a much finer shooter than many (including me) to be able to replicate a nice balanced, rested prone position when standing shooting off hand.

For me when I shot groups (load dev and I did zero the sights) from a bench (sitting, gun rested on sandbags). my POI at 20 yards changed quite a bit when standing shooting off hand. It could be a glasses thing (though they are single vision, not progressive of bi-focal) and perhaps it's just limited to me. I do see merit in the 'zero it how you shoot it' concept though.

Sorry I wasn't suggesting you were implying the use of a ransom, but believe it or not I've seen a number of guys advocate the 'remove the human elements of grip, flinch etc' to the point where they reckon a ransom rest is the way to zero the gun. I agree they are a fantastic tool for comparing the effect of different OALs, charge weight, bullet weights and even primers, but totally useless for zero-ing sights.

My apologies if my post seem combative. reading back it comes over a bit harsher than I intended. I also agree what works for one won't work for all. and I see a lot of merit in guys who can shoot a bullseye size group at 50 yards. In my area lots of guys shoot a match we call 50 yard Service. It has shots at 50/25/15/7 yards and the guys who shoot really well at this match typically also shoot really well in IPSC once they get used to moving around a lot. Being proficient at the basics of sight picture/sight alignment, trigger control, grip, shot calling etc is something worth aspiring to.

DVC