Range command break down, rants, discussion?

[justaute]

Agreed. That said, I doubt we'll see any meaningful change. Collectively, people will just continue to carry-out their inane behaviors. IMO, it all starts from the top. When an organization is poorly run, people will just poorly conduct themselves.

When people stop looking at the RO position as "friggin' work" and accept that it's part of the game, therefore getting involved and learning something, it'll go way smoother. The guy that "iced" me last weekend is a habitual non-taper/setter/brass picker, etc. Most of the people who have trouble seem to be of the same caliber (pun intended). I understand the veterans being intimidated by iPoops, Nookies and other electronic scoring devices, but at least help out and set, tape and brass. It is really aggravating to have someone run you with the wrong range commands, lack of attention and no enforcement of rules, when three shooters earlier I taped, set steel, timed and scored for them!!

Edited April 22, 2014 by justaute

[moverfive]

Something that I am reading here but not seeing a clarification: The range commands begin with "Make Ready." Therefore anything said before "Make Ready" or after "Range is Clear"........isn't applicable to the original point here as those comments would be outside of the range commands.

Therefore - if the RO asks the shooter "Do you understand the COF?" "Good morning!" "Your shoes are untied." Or whatever is said......if it is said before "Make Ready," then the range commands have not started yet.

I say that because some of the questions and comments being repeated here are good questions, are attempts of the RO to be helpful, and etc. But they need to be made outside of the range commands, which is the original point of this discussion.

Roy gave one of the primary reasons for these standard commands - language barriers. While having consistent commands is definitely preferable and more professional sounding......let's be honest here, if a RO says "Are you ready?" versus "Shooter, are you ready?" that is not going to have an impact on the English speaking shooter. However, to someone that doesn't understand English, they just now the sounds of words from which to react.

[Strick]

I got one a few years ago, can't remember if it was USPSA or IDPA (pretty sure IDPA though)........stoke it, stroke it, make it hot.

[spanky]

Understand your perspective, brother. The priggish part of me just wants to take the view of "can't teach common sense, can't fix stupid".

In all seriousness, though, I think people just don't take the RO role sufficiently serious. The good intention is there, but the depth of commitment is perhaps lacking.

I don't even know what to title this thread. Last time this type of thing happened to me at a major match, I didn't make much of an issue of it but it seems as though, as we progress, things aren't getting much better it seems.

The easiest things to fix also seem to be the most common.

1) Range commands

2) Range commands

What have I run into?

The obvious ones are "load and make ready," "shooter, are you ready?" etc.

But the one that gets me is the RO waiting on a response at the "Are you ready" command.

Folks, talk this over with your ROs at your staff meetings. ROing is a volunteer sport and I am nothing but thankful to the men and women who put on matches. However, as fairly new (in the grand scheme of things) CRO, breakdowns like this really make me question what or how we can fix these types of deficiencies.

Thoughts?

I guess I just had my rant hat on.

I've had issues at two different major matches at two different ranges in different years but in the same metropolitan region. It sorta makes me wonder.

[justaute]

I understand. It's analogous to my wanting to rid the 8.2.2 rule, "...arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides." Often, people don't follow it, ROs/MDs don't enforce it. This occurs at Majors frequently and are often committed by experienced shooters (e.g. GM). If we don't want to follow and enforce the rule, let's get rid of it.

The funning thing is, I've read/seen people claim sub-0.6/0.5 draws to 7 yards -- what a joke; their arms are bent 30-40 degrees and/or strong-hand is grasping the bottom of the holster. Travesty. Sport --- haha. Just a bunch of "suggestions" for people with guns who want to shoot things.

Understand your perspective, brother. The priggish part of me just wants to take the view of "can't teach common sense, can't fix stupid".

In all seriousness, though, I think people just don't take the RO role sufficiently serious. The good intention is there, but the depth of commitment is perhaps lacking.

I don't even know what to title this thread. Last time this type of thing happened to me at a major match, I didn't make much of an issue of it but it seems as though, as we progress, things aren't getting much better it seems.

The easiest things to fix also seem to be the most common.

1) Range commands
2) Range commands

What have I run into?

The obvious ones are "load and make ready," "shooter, are you ready?" etc.

But the one that gets me is the RO waiting on a response at the "Are you ready" command.

Folks, talk this over with your ROs at your staff meetings. ROing is a volunteer sport and I am nothing but thankful to the men and women who put on matches. However, as fairly new (in the grand scheme of things) CRO, breakdowns like this really make me question what or how we can fix these types of deficiencies.
Thoughts?

I guess I just had my rant hat on.

I've had issues at two different major matches at two different ranges in different years but in the same metropolitan region. It sorta makes me wonder.

[Sarge]

Something that I am reading here but not seeing a clarification: The range commands begin with "Make Ready." Therefore anything said before "Make Ready" or after "Range is Clear"........isn't applicable to the original point here as those comments would be outside of the range commands.

Therefore - if the RO asks the shooter "Do you understand the COF?" "Good morning!" "Your shoes are untied." Or whatever is said......if it is said before "Make Ready," then the range commands have not started yet.

I say that because some of the questions and comments being repeated here are good questions, are attempts of the RO to be helpful, and etc. But they need to be made outside of the range commands, which is the original point of this discussion.

Roy gave one of the primary reasons for these standard commands - language barriers. While having consistent commands is definitely preferable and more professional sounding......let's be honest here, if a RO says "Are you ready?" versus "Shooter, are you ready?" that is not going to have an impact on the English speaking shooter. However, to someone that doesn't understand English, they just now the sounds of words from which to react.

I try very hard not to say jack shiznit to a shooter before I give make ready. I save the niceties for after the run.

About the only exception for me is if there seems to be doubt about who the next shooter is. I may ask if he is the correct shooter.

[sfchorn]

Thread drift, but I think applicable. I have a several goals as an RO. Some of them I'm pretty good at, others still need work:

1. Be a "non-event." If possible, I do not want to impact a run in any way, shape or form. Unless the competitor or other events require my intervention, I want to be an observer.

2. Respect the competitor's run. Each competitor has paid their match fee, and deserves as much time as they need to get in the zone, shake it out, get their groove on, or whatever they choose to call their prep. It may seem excessive to take 6 sight pictures, or to re-check that every magazine goes in easily and drops freely, but it's their run. It usually doesn't take nearly as long as it seems, and if it is truly nuts, peer pressure will take care of it.

3. Be consistent. Be predictable. That includes range commands. The competitor will know exactly what to expect from me each and every time. He/she will know exactly what commands I'm going to give, because they have heard them verbatim from me running the 10 competitors ahead of them. They will know if the scoring call is close, I AM going to overlay it. Every time. I also think consistency generally helps the competitors relax and focus on the task at hand without unexpected distractions from the RO.

4. If I have to make a call, make it immediately and be able to show the competitor exactly which rule in the rulebook supports my decision.

5. Listen to the competitor. He or she may be right. Even if not, they still deserve the respect of being heard.

6. And the hardest one for me - the one that took the longest to achieve: Move on. Make the call and move on. Don't second guess yourself, don't allow a competitor's argument to upset you, and don't give the next competitor anything except your full attention.

7. Have fun. I get to witness some great competitors shoot. I get to see some of the weirdest and funniest things. In the end, I get to spend the day with great people.

[Sarge]

Great post SFC!

"Be consistent. Be predictable. That includes range commands. The competitor will know exactly what to expect from me each and every time."

That goes for all RO's everywhere. Or at least it should. Not that I am a world traveler by any means but a shooter should be able to shoot all the area matches and the nationals and hear the exact same commands on every stage at every match. And the only way that will ever happen is if this is enforced at the local level as well.

[justaute]

Nice

Thread drift, but I think applicable. I have a several goals as an RO. Some of them I'm pretty good at, others still need work:

1. Be a "non-event." If possible, I do not want to impact a run in any way, shape or form. Unless the competitor or other events require my intervention, I want to be an observer.

2. Respect the competitor's run. Each competitor has paid their match fee, and deserves as much time as they need to get in the zone, shake it out, get their groove on, or whatever they choose to call their prep. It may seem excessive to take 6 sight pictures, or to re-check that every magazine goes in easily and drops freely, but it's their run. It usually doesn't take nearly as long as it seems, and if it is truly nuts, peer pressure will take care of it.

3. Be consistent. Be predictable. That includes range commands. The competitor will know exactly what to expect from me each and every time. He/she will know exactly what commands I'm going to give, because they have heard them verbatim from me running the 10 competitors ahead of them. They will know if the scoring call is close, I AM going to overlay it. Every time. I also think consistency generally helps the competitors relax and focus on the task at hand without unexpected distractions from the RO.

4. If I have to make a call, make it immediately and be able to show the competitor exactly which rule in the rulebook supports my decision.

5. Listen to the competitor. He or she may be right. Even if not, they still deserve the respect of being heard.

6. And the hardest one for me - the one that took the longest to achieve: Move on. Make the call and move on. Don't second guess yourself, don't allow a competitor's argument to upset you, and don't give the next competitor anything except your full attention.

7. Have fun. I get to witness some great competitors shoot. I get to see some of the weirdest and funniest things. In the end, I get to spend the day with great people.

[whitedog]

SFC, none have said what an RO is better. Should be included in the class.

Thank you.

[spanky]

Thread drift, but I think applicable. I have a several goals as an RO. Some of them I'm pretty good at, others still need work:

1. Be a "non-event." If possible, I do not want to impact a run in any way, shape or form. Unless the competitor or other events require my intervention, I want to be an observer.

2. Respect the competitor's run. Each competitor has paid their match fee, and deserves as much time as they need to get in the zone, shake it out, get their groove on, or whatever they choose to call their prep. It may seem excessive to take 6 sight pictures, or to re-check that every magazine goes in easily and drops freely, but it's their run. It usually doesn't take nearly as long as it seems, and if it is truly nuts, peer pressure will take care of it.

3. Be consistent. Be predictable. That includes range commands. The competitor will know exactly what to expect from me each and every time. He/she will know exactly what commands I'm going to give, because they have heard them verbatim from me running the 10 competitors ahead of them. They will know if the scoring call is close, I AM going to overlay it. Every time. I also think consistency generally helps the competitors relax and focus on the task at hand without unexpected distractions from the RO.

4. If I have to make a call, make it immediately and be able to show the competitor exactly which rule in the rulebook supports my decision.

5. Listen to the competitor. He or she may be right. Even if not, they still deserve the respect of being heard.

6. And the hardest one for me - the one that took the longest to achieve: Move on. Make the call and move on. Don't second guess yourself, don't allow a competitor's argument to upset you, and don't give the next competitor anything except your full attention.

7. Have fun. I get to witness some great competitors shoot. I get to see some of the weirdest and funniest things. In the end, I get to spend the day with great people.

Well said.

[HoboBrasser]

Shooting at new range, the RO (whom I do not know) says "are you ready". Long interval I turn and he hits buzzer. I do not start, but ask what is going on? He says you have to nod your head when ready. Long discussion. Others chime in seems that is the local custom. I have to nod when we get back to business. Later I get rule book out, cuts no ice. Haven't been back there since.

Edited May 11, 2014 by HoboBrasser

[CHA-LEE]

Shooting at new range, the RO (whom I do not know) says "are you ready". Long interval I turn and he hits buzzer. I do not start, but ask what is going on? He says you have to nod your head when ready. Long discussion. Others chime in seems that is the local custom. I have to nod when we get back to business. Later I get rule book out, cuts no ice. Haven't been back there since.

When RO's try to make up rules, I tell them to show me the rule they are trying to leverage in the rule book. When they can't produce the written rule, because it doesn't exist, I tell them to start using the rules as defined. That interaction usually does not make people happy, but its required to point out the fact that we can't simply make up rules that do not exist.

Edited May 12, 2014 by CHA-LEE

[chaosshooter00]

I'm BACK!! So I travel to a range about two hours from home and shoot a match. All is going well, they have a couple of "facing up range" starts and on the first one my buddy lets me know that I was really fast at getting the gun out, not too fast, but close. So we shoot a couple more stages and come to the next "up range" start. My turn comes around and I decide I will go "French Attack" to slow myself down a tick on the draw. RO says "Make Ready" and I do, then he says "Are you ready" to which I don't respond, he says "Stand by", flinches and asks "You know you don't have to be in surrender?" The only reason I didn't draw on the flinch was because I knew I needed to slow down. Needless to say, he had no clue why I was angry. I shoot at 3-5 different clubs a month and have started to notice this is a growing trend. I have informed MD's and RM's, but it is never mentioned in the shooter's meeting unless I bring it up, which I do...OFTEN. I went to RO class with both the nimrods that have done this to me lately and I know they know the rules. GGGGRRRRRR!!!!!!!

Edited May 12, 2014 by chaosshooter00

[afoulk]

Have you started thinking that they do it because you get upset about it? Zen is your path to true inner peace. Water off a duck's back and all that noise. Don't let it bother you and continue to crap excellence anyway.

[Jakobi]

I'm not sure what your issue with the RO is (or what you're really upset about) but it sounds like you were out of position and the RO was attempting to correct you prior to issuing the "Stand by" command.

-Jake

Edited May 12, 2014 by Jakobi

[chaosshooter00]

Have you started thinking that they do it because you get upset about it? Zen is your path to true inner peace. Water off a duck's back and all that noise. Don't let it bother you and continue to crap excellence anyway.

I figured it was because I was younger and moved fast. LOL You are correct though, I should learn to keep my composure better and stay centered.

[chaosshooter00]

I'm not sure what your issue with the RO is (or what you're really upset about) but it sounds like you were out of position and the RO was attempting to correct you prior to issuing the "Stand by" command.

-Jake

There was no hand position listed in the WSB. He did say "Stand by", I misspoke in the original post and got it out of order, who draws after "Are you ready?", my bad.

Edited May 12, 2014 by chaosshooter00

[Jakobi]

So how do you apply 8.2.2 to facing uprange starts if no hand position is given?

-Jake

[spanky]

So how do you apply 8.2.2 to facing uprange starts if no hand position is given?

-Jake

To the best of my knowledge, you use the facets of 8.2.2 that are not specified.

And you have a talk with the RM/MD/Stage designer so they can correct their WSB for next time.

[chaosshooter00]

So how do you apply 8.2.2 to facing uprange starts if no hand position is given?

-Jake

To the best of my knowledge, you use the facets of 8.2.2 that are not specified.

And you have a talk with the RM/MD/Stage designer so they can correct their WSB for next time.

As a visitor to their range, I mentioned the problems on a couple of the stages, but running our local matches and helping with other clubs has taught me that sometimes it's just best to shoot and have a good time. I have three guys that help do all the work and sometimes they miss something in the WSB and I'm happy to let it slide for the help. God forbid I don't win the Krylon gold Pinto at the end of the day. This drifted far enough, after "Stand by", all I want to hear is a buzzer, not a question of start position, that question should have been asked before "Are you ready".

[Jakobi]

I agree that the proper time to address a competitor's start position is prior to "Are you ready?" as this command is not supposed to be given until the competitor has assumed the correct start position. However, if I'm in the wrong position I'd rather have the RO stop anytime prior to the start signal so that I can be reset in the correct position rather than reshooting the COF.

-Jake

[motosapiens]

I'm BACK!! So I travel to a range about two hours from home and shoot a match. All is going well, they have a couple of "facing up range" starts and on the first one my buddy lets me know that I was really fast at getting the gun out, not too fast, but close. So we shoot a couple more stages and come to the next "up range" start. My turn comes around and I decide I will go "French Attack" to slow myself down a tick on the draw. RO says "Make Ready" and I do, then he says "Are you ready" to which I don't respond, he says "Stand by", flinches and asks "You know you don't have to be in surrender?" The only reason I didn't draw on the flinch was because I knew I needed to slow down. Needless to say, he had no clue why I was angry. I shoot at 3-5 different clubs a month and have started to notice this is a growing trend. I have informed MD's and RM's, but it is never mentioned in the shooter's meeting unless I bring it up, which I do...OFTEN. I went to RO class with both the nimrods that have done this to me lately and I know they know the rules. GGGGRRRRRR!!!!!!!

I wouldn't have started you (or even asked if you were ready) if you were at surrender when the start position was something else (if not specified, the start position is arms hanging naturally at sides). My normal procedure after a few seconds is to inform the competitor "hands at sides when you are ready". I can't always tell when someone doesn't know the start position vs they're still making ready and mentally rehearsing.

I believe your anger is misplaced.

Edited May 13, 2014 by motosapiens

[RammerJammer]

Seriously, wait till you deal with one of the guys that will stand in silence forever until you ask and THEN tell you you aren't in the start position. I've been there in almost the same scenario.

[remoandiris]

Not to hijack the thread, but has NROI ever provided definitive guidance on start position if only one portion is in the WSB? In other words, if the WSB says competitor is sitting in the chair facing down range, but nothing about where the hands are, is the default arms hanging naturally at sides? Or, since a portion of the start position is stated, can the competitor have their hands where they want them as long as they are not touching the gun prior to the start signal?

There was a thread here several months ago but I don't recall an official resolution.