spanky Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 (edited) Instead of posting about do you take the time to nicely remind them that there is a specific set of range commands and reason behind it? A simple, "yeah not sure if you were aware of it but you are not using the correct range commands...... The reason for them is..... Just thought I would give you a friendly reminder...." Yes, absolutely. Edit: I tell them. I try to be friendly about it. Edited April 18, 2014 by spanky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 I have had the best luck in resolving these issues at Level 2 or above matches by simply telling the Range Master to handle it. Its really not the shooters place to correct the RO's when they are using the wrong range commands, especially when its your turn to shoot. Getting snippy about it by calling them out on their errors usually only creates bitterness between the RO and the Shooter which can lead to all kinds of other unneeded drama. I have only had to correct an RO once by stating "Please use the correct range commands so I can handle my firarme without being DQ'ed" during a major match. This was in response to the RO giving me an invalid range command of "Load it up" instead of the "Make Ready" command. Beyond trying to throw me under the bus by using the wrong range commands, I will simply roll with it and then take it up with the RM later on. All it really comes down to is people being lazy. As a match director myself I have heard every excuse as to why they are not using the correct range commands. I simply tell them that there is no excuse for being too lazy to read and memorize the range commands. Man up and get it done like everyone else has to or DON'T RO. This either snaps them into shape, or they quit ROing which are both valid solutions. When you're the shooter and staff and you're shooting with the ROs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Here's another one that's not in the rulebook to ponder. There is no range command that compels a shooter to put their hands on their head while someone goes downrange to fix something (paste a target, reset a popper that was forgotten). I'll never ask anyone to do it. I'll ask to be unloaded if someone asks me to do it. It's especially ridiculous if the start position for the stage is "facing uprange". Thanks to Bob for helping me understand this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 I have had the best luck in resolving these issues at Level 2 or above matches by simply telling the Range Master to handle it. Its really not the shooters place to correct the RO's when they are using the wrong range commands, especially when its your turn to shoot. Getting snippy about it by calling them out on their errors usually only creates bitterness between the RO and the Shooter which can lead to all kinds of other unneeded drama. I have only had to correct an RO once by stating "Please use the correct range commands so I can handle my firarme without being DQ'ed" during a major match. This was in response to the RO giving me an invalid range command of "Load it up" instead of the "Make Ready" command. Beyond trying to throw me under the bus by using the wrong range commands, I will simply roll with it and then take it up with the RM later on. All it really comes down to is people being lazy. As a match director myself I have heard every excuse as to why they are not using the correct range commands. I simply tell them that there is no excuse for being too lazy to read and memorize the range commands. Man up and get it done like everyone else has to or DON'T RO. This either snaps them into shape, or they quit ROing which are both valid solutions. When you're the shooter and staff and you're shooting with the ROs.... I have been in that same situation myself. If I am shooting a pre-match with match staff and the Range Commands are getting screwed up I will set them straight as soon as it happens. Obviously doing it in a polite and constructive way. In that situation, the way I see it we are all working together to provide the most consistent rules abiding match and if an RO is screwing up the range commands that needs to be corrected in a graceful way ASAP. When I MD a Level 2 match I make it very clear in my staff communications that the proper range commands will be used with no exceptions. I make sure that every RO has a Rule book to reference as needed. Then I spot check the RO's knowledge of the range commands at random times before and during the event. If they cant recite the range commands from memory I ask them to open up their rule book and reread them until they can. I also look at the possible "Funky Calls" that may need to be made for each stage given its scoring type or physical configuration and quiz the RO's on how they would handle those funky calls. Doing all of this proactively makes me sound like a hard ass on the RO's but it results in exceptional performance by the RO's when the actual match is happening. This exceptional RO performance results in very minimal rules related drama happening during the match. Just like with improving shooting skills, RO's need to practice their craft. The more practice they have in ROing the more effective they are going to be. I think that the primary challenge most clubs have with poor RO's is that they feel like they can't push the RO's to be better because they are Volunteering to perform the RO task. So they simply live with the poor ROing and the poor RO's continue to get away with doing a crappy job. It takes a firm hand to set these kind of guys straight and if they refuse to comply with the rules due to being lazy then its simply best to set a hard line in the sand stating that they either shape up or ship out. If the poor RO's refuse to change their ways and choose to not RO any more, it sucks to lose their assistance, but its for the best in the long run. Once the remaining RO base understands that there will not be any tolerance for screwing up the basics, such as siting the range command, then they will usually snap into shape on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmartphoto Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 As for expecting any specific timing between "Are you ready?" and "Standby", I have no pity for someone who is distracted by these things. Other than the logical constraint of it needing to be long enough to allow for a negative response, no timing is specified. The only timing specified by the rulebook is between "Standby." and the beep. My standard timing between "Are you ready" and "Standby" is for the person who does not respond. They may not respond for a number of reasons, including not hearing the command. If you want to make the time faster, respond in some way. Otherwise, stay focused, wait for the "Standby" and the beep. Don't let your personal peeves affect your own readiness to perform on the stage. Voicing your displeasure at me over my timing will get you nowhere when the problem is really in your head. Exactly this, Jesus just nod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 As for expecting any specific timing between "Are you ready?" and "Standby", I have no pity for someone who is distracted by these things. Other than the logical constraint of it needing to be long enough to allow for a negative response, no timing is specified. The only timing specified by the rulebook is between "Standby." and the beep. My standard timing between "Are you ready" and "Standby" is for the person who does not respond. They may not respond for a number of reasons, including not hearing the command. If you want to make the time faster, respond in some way. Otherwise, stay focused, wait for the "Standby" and the beep. Don't let your personal peeves affect your own readiness to perform on the stage. Voicing your displeasure at me over my timing will get you nowhere when the problem is really in your head. Exactly this, Jesus just nod. Exactly not this. Just run the range commands -- or fetch an RO who can. They're not that hard...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 So how long am I supposed to pause to allow for a negative response? Is there not supposed to be a pause? Why are they two separate range commands? Why is the command a question? Why not just skip straight to standby? Why not change the rule book commands to "If you are ready, Standby."(which, by the way, seems reasonable to me). Cite a rule, or you have no reason to get upset and need a different RO because the range commands are being delivered per the rules. I can agree that the time should be bounded by reason and would support a reasonable bound being put in the rule book. For now, you know that standby is coming, per the rule book. Wait for it and don't get upset about rules you made up yourself. For reference, I never argued that someone needed to respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 If you don't know the proper range commands chances are you don't know the rest of the rules either. Take the time to learn the range commands and rules or don't RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Here's another one that's not in the rulebook to ponder. There is no range command that compels a shooter to put their hands on their head while someone goes downrange to fix something (paste a target, reset a popper that was forgotten). I'll never ask anyone to do it. I'll ask to be unloaded if someone asks me to do it. It's especially ridiculous if the start position for the stage is "facing uprange". Thanks to Bob for helping me understand this one... Having a shooter put their hands on heads is much faster than unloading and clearing them just to paste a target. I do this every time somebody has to go downrange and the shooter is loaded up. I don't do it for the shooter, I do it for the guy going downrange. I won't go downrange to fix something if a shooter is just standing there waiting to shoot. Slim but still the possibility of him being zoned out and reacting to a timer in the next bay or something crazy like that. If you have ever shot a match on a windy day where things keep falling or whatever it would literally take forever to get the stage shot if we unloaded and cleared each and every time. Asking a shooter to put his hands on his head for 15 seconds is a reasonable request from an RO. If you refuse there is a rule for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 From a match last year. Here's the scenario. Its a Level 2 match and you are already short on CROs and ROs. I'm the RO running the clipboard and the CRO is consistently giving the wrong commands. He likes running the timer and does not like doing the paperwork. During the day, two competitors have complained about being given incorrect wrong commands. I've advised the CRO several times what the correct commands are. His response is "they will get over it". RM declines to get involved. Not happy about it but some people will not change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 our RM corps needs work. Not really the RM's themselves. But if you read about enough majors and shoot some yourself there is a pattern of inconsistency for sure. RM's should rule with an iron fist to a certain degree and not decline to get involved in a range issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Sarge, I can't agree with your last point. Those who have had shoulder surgery or problems will disagree with you. Add to that, the fact that facing uprange starts allowed simply obviates the necessity because a loaded holstered gun is deemed safe. Keep in mind that a shooter facing uprange can have their hand on their firearm all they like to keep the RO from issuing "Are you ready?". Asking someone to face a berm or other specific direction and not handle their firearm are far more reasonable requests. If someone is going downrange, I'll be the cowboy and stand directly in front of the shooter, giving him his three feet for his muzzle to remind him people are downrange. If he handles his firearm, we have a better rule for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 As for expecting any specific timing between "Are you ready?" and "Standby", I have no pity for someone who is distracted by these things. Other than the logical constraint of it needing to be long enough to allow for a negative response, no timing is specified. The only timing specified by the rulebook is between "Standby." and the beep. My standard timing between "Are you ready" and "Standby" is for the person who does not respond. They may not respond for a number of reasons, including not hearing the command. If you want to make the time faster, respond in some way. Otherwise, stay focused, wait for the "Standby" and the beep. Don't let your personal peeves affect your own readiness to perform on the stage. Voicing your displeasure at me over my timing will get you nowhere when the problem is really in your head. Exactly this, Jesus just nod. Exactly not this. Just run the range commands -- or fetch an RO who can. They're not that hard...... Yes. ^^ This. I spent a LOT of money to come to this match. Please use the standardized commands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) Sarge, I can't agree with your last point. Those who have had shoulder surgery or problems will disagree with you. Add to that, the fact that facing uprange starts allowed simply obviates the necessity because a loaded holstered gun is deemed safe. Keep in mind that a shooter facing uprange can have their hand on their firearm all they like to keep the RO from issuing "Are you ready?". Asking someone to face a berm or other specific direction and not handle their firearm are far more reasonable requests. If someone is going downrange, I'll be the cowboy and stand directly in front of the shooter, giving him his three feet for his muzzle to remind him people are downrange. If he handles his firearm, we have a better rule for that. OK, now there is a bad shoulder in the mix. I would say cross your arms across your torso probably. And for the record keeping a hand on the gun is typically the universal sign that the shooter is not ready. That's not just an uprange thing. Sure a holstered gun is deemed safe but a shooter with hands way away from his gun is also deemed safe, especially if somebody is walking around in front of him. I don't want somebody down range unless I have "disabled" a shooter. i.e. making him look like anything but a shooter standing there waiting on a beep. Just a courtesy to the guy downrange. How does a shooter comply with wrists above shoulders, or fingers interlaced behind head if his shoulder is so bad he can't put his hands on top of his head? Just curious. Special penalty I guess? Edited April 20, 2014 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Here's another one that's not in the rulebook to ponder. There is no range command that compels a shooter to put their hands on their head while someone goes downrange to fix something (paste a target, reset a popper that was forgotten). I'll never ask anyone to do it. I'll ask to be unloaded if someone asks me to do it. It's especially ridiculous if the start position for the stage is "facing uprange". Thanks to Bob for helping me understand this one... Having a shooter put their hands on heads is much faster than unloading and clearing them just to paste a target. I do this every time somebody has to go downrange and the shooter is loaded up. I don't do it for the shooter, I do it for the guy going downrange. I won't go downrange to fix something if a shooter is just standing there waiting to shoot. Slim but still the possibility of him being zoned out and reacting to a timer in the next bay or something crazy like that. If you have ever shot a match on a windy day where things keep falling or whatever it would literally take forever to get the stage shot if we unloaded and cleared each and every time. Asking a shooter to put his hands on his head for 15 seconds is a reasonable request from an RO. If you refuse there is a rule for that. Kevin, I disagree that it's a reasonable request, and I've managed to avoid giving that command on a number of occasions when good friends of mine have gone downrange. (And I've gone downrange a number of times, with a hot shooter, and a friend being the RO and controlling the shooter. My process is to stand in front of the competitor -- essentially putting me between him and whoever went to fix the problem. I can keep eye contact, and be within arms reach..... To top it off -- if I can trust the competitor to be aware of a a man downrange fixing something, and to act appropriately while that's going on, then I can't trust him to compete in the match..... If you're not comfortable with that for a particular competitor, then you should at minimum unload the shooter's gun before sending someone downrange..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 How does a shooter comply with wrists above shoulders, or fingers interlaced behind head if his shoulder is so bad he can't put his hands on top of his head? Just curious. Special penalty I guess? There's a difference between a few seconds of assuming that position, and possibly a few minutes while something is fixed...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) If you're concerned about sending someone down range, why not just face the shooter uprange? You can ask them to lock up their speed holsters, too. No worries about getting people to help, because the people who are worried about the loaded gun would volunteer to go help. There is simply no logical difference between the safety of a shooter with a loaded and holstered firearm facing uprange and having someone go downrange. In either case we're playing by big boy rules and expecting that the firearm will not be handled. Mistakes are expected to be handled harshly. If you need more, unload them. Asking to be unloaded should always be an honored request, as opposed to requiring a shooter to take any arbitrary position for the purpose of safety. Edited April 20, 2014 by afoulk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmartphoto Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 As for expecting any specific timing between "Are you ready?" and "Standby", I have no pity for someone who is distracted by these things. Other than the logical constraint of it needing to be long enough to allow for a negative response, no timing is specified. The only timing specified by the rulebook is between "Standby." and the beep. My standard timing between "Are you ready" and "Standby" is for the person who does not respond. They may not respond for a number of reasons, including not hearing the command. If you want to make the time faster, respond in some way. Otherwise, stay focused, wait for the "Standby" and the beep. Don't let your personal peeves affect your own readiness to perform on the stage. Voicing your displeasure at me over my timing will get you nowhere when the problem is really in your head.Exactly this, Jesus just nod. Exactly not this. Just run the range commands -- or fetch an RO who can. They're not that hard...... I get the frustration with goofy commands like "gas it up" etc. But "are you ready?" Is a question. Responding doesn't hurt you one bit, and keeps the pacing consistent. Sure you don't HAVE to respond but I can't figure out why you wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) I will continue to do things my way when I run a stage. Within the rules of course.Thanks for all the input. Edited April 21, 2014 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I tend to work large matches and run a lot of shooters. The majority of shooters don't respond to "are you ready" but I already know they are by what they have done. Watch the shooter after make ready, When they stop futzing around and get in the position, give the "Are you Ready" command and if they don't say no pretty quickly go to "standby". Some shooters that tend to take a long time to get ready, will give a nod when they are ready to go. Then I give "are you ready" and go directly to "standby". Either way, part of the the RO's job is to pay attention to what the shooter is doing. If you pay attention you will know when the shooter is ready and won't need for them to let you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I tend to work large matches and run a lot of shooters. The majority of shooters don't respond to "are you ready" but I already know they are by what they have done. Watch the shooter after make ready, When they stop futzing around and get in the position, give the "Are you Ready" command and if they don't say no pretty quickly go to "standby". Some shooters that tend to take a long time to get ready, will give a nod when they are ready to go. Then I give "are you ready" and go directly to "standby". Either way, part of the the RO's job is to pay attention to what the shooter is doing. If you pay attention you will know when the shooter is ready and won't need for them to let you know. Correct. With experience a good RO knows when the shooter is finally set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 As for expecting any specific timing between "Are you ready?" and "Standby", I have no pity for someone who is distracted by these things. Other than the logical constraint of it needing to be long enough to allow for a negative response, no timing is specified. The only timing specified by the rulebook is between "Standby." and the beep. My standard timing between "Are you ready" and "Standby" is for the person who does not respond. They may not respond for a number of reasons, including not hearing the command. If you want to make the time faster, respond in some way. Otherwise, stay focused, wait for the "Standby" and the beep. Don't let your personal peeves affect your own readiness to perform on the stage. Voicing your displeasure at me over my timing will get you nowhere when the problem is really in your head.Exactly this, Jesus just nod. Exactly not this. Just run the range commands -- or fetch an RO who can. They're not that hard...... I get the frustration with goofy commands like "gas it up" etc. But "are you ready?" Is a question. Responding doesn't hurt you one bit, and keeps the pacing consistent. Sure you don't HAVE to respond but I can't figure out why you wouldn't. Rules. 8.3.2 “Are You Ready?” – The lack of any negative response from the competitor indicates that he fully understands the requirements of the course of fire and is ready to proceed. If the competitor is not ready at the “Are You Ready?” command, he must indicate to the Range Officer that he is not ready. Very few seasoned shooters respond. Shooters who are taught the rules are taught to not respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmartphoto Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 PicardFacePalm.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Sorry to keep disagreeing, but it seems to me that we are treating seasoned shooters differently from noobs and those with declining hearing. That simply shouldn't happen. Most noobs don't know the universal "I'm not ready position". I run a lot of noobs, so it helps to treat "Are you ready?" as a question rather than a command that gets glossed over on the way to standby. Does it take 5 seconds to get to standby? Nope. Not even for the least observant RO. You really have no grounds to be upset if it takes somewhere between 1.5 and 3 seconds, though. The question becomes what is "pretty quickly" and does it serve the purpose for everyone equally, even the person who you are not sure heard the command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 It wasn't that long ago when USPSA asked members for input to the rulebook. No more than a few months, IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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