Range command break down, rants, discussion?

[CHA-LEE]

Not to hijack the thread, but has NROI ever provided definitive guidance on start position if only one portion is in the WSB? In other words, if the WSB says competitor is sitting in the chair facing down range, but nothing about where the hands are, is the default arms hanging naturally at sides? Or, since a portion of the start position is stated, can the competitor have their hands where they want them as long as they are not touching the gun prior to the start signal?

There was a thread here several months ago but I don't recall an official resolution.

Look up rule 8.2.2

[remoandiris]

Not to hijack the thread, but has NROI ever provided definitive guidance on start position if only one portion is in the WSB? In other words, if the WSB says competitor is sitting in the chair facing down range, but nothing about where the hands are, is the default arms hanging naturally at sides? Or, since a portion of the start position is stated, can the competitor have their hands where they want them as long as they are not touching the gun prior to the start signal?

There was a thread here several months ago but I don't recall an official resolution.

Look up rule 8.2.2

BTDT. That doesn't answer my question/question from the other thread. 8.2.2 does NOT say if stance (or sitting) is the only item in the WSB, the other parts of the start are the defaults.

8.2.2 says if the start is not specified, then do this. Well part of the start is described (sitting facing downrange), but not where hands are. So are arms required to hang naturally at sides? What rule supports it?

[CHA-LEE]

"unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides"

The key there is the verbiage "unless otherwise specified". In your start position description being seated and facing down range are "specified". Everything else is not specified, which means everything else defaults to the requirements listed in rule 8.2.2. In this specific case, your arms and hands would have to be hanging naturally by the sides as you are sitting facing down range.

[remoandiris]

"unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides"

The key there is the verbiage "unless otherwise specified". In your start position description being seated and facing down range are "specified". Everything else is not specified, which means everything else defaults to the requirements listed in rule 8.2.2. In this specific case, your arms and hands would have to be hanging naturally by the sides as you are sitting facing down range.

Sounds reasonable. I'll use it the next time someone argues about the start not including everything so they can put their hands wherever they want. Only happened at a few L1 matches so far. RMs' opinions differed.

Edited May 13, 2014 by remoandiris

[Nik Habicht]

Honestly -- best practice is to be very specific as to what you want, or to be very specific as to what you don't care about......

Start Position: Standing, facing anywhere in FFZ, hands in position of shooter's choosing......

Or Standing/Sitting/Lying/Kneeling, feet/knees/hands/fingers/palms touching marks.....

[Skydiver]

"unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides"

The key there is the verbiage "unless otherwise specified". In your start position description being seated and facing down range are "specified". Everything else is not specified, which means everything else defaults to the requirements listed in rule 8.2.2. In this specific case, your arms and hands would have to be hanging naturally by the sides as you are sitting facing down range.

If we follow that logic, then the rule about equipment location should likewise be followed the same way for table starts. From what I've seen in the past, when it's a table start, it becomes completely freestyle on how people move around with the mags (as long as they comply with division requirements).

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

:

When stipulations in the WSB require placement of magazines or speed loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices prior to the start signal, retrieving them and using them from the hand is allowed.

If everything else defaults, then people can't go retrieve mags/speedloaders, and run around with mags/speedloaders in their mouth, under an armpit, wedged into their pants, stuffed into the prop basket they are supposed to lug around, etc.

e.g.

Start Position: Standing with toes on X's. Easter Basket in weak hand. Handgun unloaded laying flat on table with trigger over the center of the 'X'. All ammunition to be used on table.

Stage procedure: On start signal engage all targets as visible from within the shooting area. Swingers T8-T9-T10 are activated by placing basket into Slot A.

If they aren't going to hold the mags/speedloaders, they have either leave them on the table (or take them from table to table by hand), or place them in their mag/speedloader holders.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Skydiver

[CHA-LEE]

"unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides"

The key there is the verbiage "unless otherwise specified". In your start position description being seated and facing down range are "specified". Everything else is not specified, which means everything else defaults to the requirements listed in rule 8.2.2. In this specific case, your arms and hands would have to be hanging naturally by the sides as you are sitting facing down range.

If we follow that logic, then the rule about equipment location should likewise be followed the same way for table starts. From what I've seen in the past, when it's a table start, it becomes completely freestyle on how people move around with the mags (as long as they comply with division requirements).

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose.

:

When stipulations in the WSB require placement of magazines or speed loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices prior to the start signal, retrieving them and using them from the hand is allowed.

If everything else defaults, then people can't go retrieve mags/speedloaders, and run around with mags/speedloaders in their mouth, under an armpit, wedged into their pants, stuffed into the prop basket they are supposed to lug around, etc.

e.g.

Start Position: Standing with toes on X's. Easter Basket in weak hand. Handgun unloaded laying flat on table with trigger over the center of the 'X'. All ammunition to be used on table.

Stage procedure: On start signal engage all targets as visible from within the shooting area. Swingers T8-T9-T10 are activated by placing basket into Slot A.

If they aren't going to hold the mags/speedloaders, they have either leave them on the table (or take them from table to table by hand), or place them in their mag/speedloader holders.

You are comparing apples to oranges. The question was about the competitors physical start position, not equipment location. There are a crap ton of other rules that define the equipment location and how it is handled in various conditions.

[gardan01]

Got "iced" by an RO this weekend. First I just waited, then he asked for a head nod turned and talked to his buddy and missed it, when I finally went full bobble head, he hit the button. The new rulebook just came out, I told him to give it a read and he informed me that as I didn't respond, he didn't have to. I think the rulebook is very clear on this, not even a smidgen of gray, of course I read at a fourth grade level, just saying...

[gardan01]

Shooting at new range, the RO (whom I do not know) says "are you ready". Long interval I turn and he hits buzzer. I do not start, but ask what is going on? He says you have to nod your head when ready. Long discussion. Others chime in seems that is the local custom. I have to nod when we get back to business. Later I get rule book out, cuts no ice. Haven't been back there since.

When RO's try to make up rules, I tell them to show me the rule they are trying to leverage in the rule book. When they can't produce the written rule, because it doesn't exist, I tell them to start using the rules as defined. That interaction usually does not make people happy, but its required to point out the fact that we can't simply make up rules that do not exist.

[rhett45acp]

I really don't like the nod thing at all.

Hum, baseball has been around how long? I have never seen a game where the pitcher asks the batter - "nod when you want me to throw the ball".

[sigsauerfan]

I really don't like the nod thing at all.

Hum, baseball has been around how long? I have never seen a game where the pitcher asks the batter - "nod when you want me to throw the ball".

simple.at the ''are you ready''',if you don't move or signify you're not ready,that means you're ready. i wouldn't like to be asked for a nod meaning i'm ready. if i keep my paw on my holstered gun,obviously i'm not ready. otherwise, let the beeper do his job.