Starting outside shooting area ?

[a matt]

I have noticed at level 1 and 2 matches starting outside shooting area the shooters have nor foot in and one foot out. Why on earth would an good RO start anyone with a foot inside the shooting area?

[Nik Habicht]

What did the stage description say regarding the start position?

[a matt]

Start pos. standing outside the shooting area handgun loaded arms relaxed at sides shoot them as you see them from inside shooting area. All USPSA rules apply. This was level 1 hand written brief. Level 2 was about the same just giving 8.1.1 and other rule #'s that applied but that was after the start.

[Sarge]

That wsb really only requires the shooter to be touching something outside the shooting area.

Should have read both feet outside the shooting area if they wanted to really start the shooter outside the shooting area

[okorpheus]

The logic would probably be that of they fired a shot that way they would be penalized for being outside the shooting area, therefore one foot outside the shooting area satisfies the stage description of the starting position. Stage description should say starting with both feet outside of the shooting area to solve the problem if that is what was intended.

[a matt]

It's a level one match. Hell they hardly have time to get 5 stages up. But I guess you are right.

[GrumpyOne]

Most the ones I've shot starting outside the shooting area, WSB says standing outside shooting area, toes (or heels) on X's....solves that problem

[blueorb]

That wsb really only requires the shooter to be touching something outside the shooting area.

Should have read both feet outside the shooting area if they wanted to really start the shooter outside the shooting area

How does "Start pos. standing outside the shooting area handgun loaded arms relaxed at sides" equal your "touching something outside the shooting area"?

Touching something outside the shooting are is not, no matter how you look at it, standing outside the shooting area. I'm all for people that game stages but that is ridiculous. How about just doing what the wsb says?

If I were to tell you to go stand on my left you wouldn't stand in front of me, while touching something on my left, and try to claim that you are now "standing on my left". Just my very humble opinion but USPSA needs to stop these start position gaming tactics. Once the timer goes off then game all you want.

Edited April 8, 2014 by blueorb

[CZinSC]

Going to have to respectfully disagree with you there Shannon. If you're going to build a stage, spell out in the WSB what you want people to do at the start. For example:

Start position standing outside shooting area

or

Start position standing with both feet outside of the shooting area.

You've just built a stage, which probably took upwards of an hour, or more. How much longer does it take to write the second sentence than the first? As a stage builder, you have to understand that putting props on the ground is only part of it. Spelling out what you want the shooters to do in the WSB is still very important. If you don't want someone to game a start, simply write it in.

When I saw people gaming foot positions and hand positions, I wrote a WSB last summer where the start position was "Standing with both feet outside shooting area toes touching marks, and the tips of the index fingers of each hand touching competitors nose". Game that! If you can....more power to ya!

[blueorb]

Going to have to respectfully disagree with you there Shannon. If you're going to build a stage, spell out in the WSB what you want people to do at the start. For example:

Start position standing outside shooting area

or

Start position standing with both feet outside of the shooting area.

You've just built a stage, which probably took upwards of an hour, or more. How much longer does it take to write the second sentence than the first? As a stage builder, you have to understand that putting props on the ground is only part of it. Spelling out what you want the shooters to do in the WSB is still very important. If you don't want someone to game a start, simply write it in.

When I saw people gaming foot positions and hand positions, I wrote a WSB last summer where the start position was "Standing with both feet outside shooting area toes touching marks, and the tips of the index fingers of each hand touching competitors nose". Game that! If you can....more power to ya!

Yea, I get that and that is the response that I normally get. And then people, that know way more about it than I do, start throwing the rule book in my face and I always lose this argument. I guess it's more of a frustration thing. Like you said, you spend an hour or more building a stage only to have people rip it apart before the buzzer even goes off.

I guess I need to be more through in writing the WSB's, as you mentioned.

[Sarge]

That wsb really only requires the shooter to be touching something outside the shooting area.

Should have read both feet outside the shooting area if they wanted to really start the shooter outside the shooting area

How does "Start pos. standing outside the shooting area handgun loaded arms relaxed at sides" equal your "touching something outside the shooting area"?

Touching something outside the shooting are is not, no matter how you look at it, standing outside the shooting area. I'm all for people that game stages but that is ridiculous. How about just doing what the wsb says?

If I were to tell you to go stand on my left you wouldn't stand in front of me, while touching something on my left, and try to claim that you are now "standing on my left". Just my very humble opinion but USPSA needs to stop these start position gaming tactics. Once the timer goes off then game all you want.

if you touch anything outside the shooting area you are outside of the shooting area. You earn a procedural for leaning on a wall that is not connected to the shooting area so it stands to reason you are indeed outside the shooting area.

Sure if the wsb says hands at sides yadda yadda then of course that holds. But if the wsb says starting outside the shooting area you can actually reach out and touch an unattached wall, table, etc and actually be standing well within the shooting area. Those are covered in the rules

[Nik Habicht]

It's a level one match. Hell they hardly have time to get 5 stages up. But I guess you are right.

I've run a level 1 for a few years -- it's not that hard to write Toes touching XXss, or "Standing anywhere inside free fire zone."

Basically it comes down to specificity.....

[22 shooter]

That wsb really only requires the shooter to be touching something outside the shooting area.

Should have read both feet outside the shooting area if they wanted to really start the shooter outside the shooting area

How does "Start pos. standing outside the shooting area handgun loaded arms relaxed at sides" equal your "touching something outside the shooting area"?

Touching something outside the shooting are is not, no matter how you look at it, standing outside the shooting area. I'm all for people that game stages but that is ridiculous. How about just doing what the wsb says?

If I were to tell you to go stand on my left you wouldn't stand in front of me, while touching something on my left, and try to claim that you are now "standing on my left". Just my very humble opinion but USPSA needs to stop these start position gaming tactics. Once the timer goes off then game all you want.

if you touch anything outside the shooting area you are outside of the shooting area. You earn a procedural for leaning on a wall that is not connected to the shooting area so it stands to reason you are indeed outside the shooting area.

Sure if the wsb says hands at sides yadda yadda then of course that holds. But if the wsb says starting outside the shooting area you can actually reach out and touch an unattached wall, table, etc and actually be standing well within the shooting area. Those are covered in the rules

If touching anything outside the shooting area means I am outside of the shooting area. I am also touching inside the shooting area so I am inside the shooting area, am I not? So would I not be starting inside the shooting area?

[Sarge]

That wsb really only requires the shooter to be touching something outside the shooting area.

Should have read both feet outside the shooting area if they wanted to really start the shooter outside the shooting area

How does "Start pos. standing outside the shooting area handgun loaded arms relaxed at sides" equal your "touching something outside the shooting area"?

Touching something outside the shooting are is not, no matter how you look at it, standing outside the shooting area. I'm all for people that game stages but that is ridiculous. How about just doing what the wsb says?

If I were to tell you to go stand on my left you wouldn't stand in front of me, while touching something on my left, and try to claim that you are now "standing on my left". Just my very humble opinion but USPSA needs to stop these start position gaming tactics. Once the timer goes off then game all you want.

if you touch anything outside the shooting area you are outside of the shooting area. You earn a procedural for leaning on a wall that is not connected to the shooting area so it stands to reason you are indeed outside the shooting area.

Sure if the wsb says hands at sides yadda yadda then of course that holds. But if the wsb says starting outside the shooting area you can actually reach out and touch an unattached wall, table, etc and actually be standing well within the shooting area. Those are covered in the rules

If touching anything outside the shooting area means I am outside of the shooting area. I am also touching inside the shooting area so I am inside the shooting area, am I not? So would I not be starting inside the shooting area?

UGH.....

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting, providing doing so does not violate (2.2.1.5 or 3.2.6)

Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground)

leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the

competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least

one foot on the ground inside the shooting area.

[Mark R]

Think about it...you are either in or out. If one foot is out, then you are out of the shooting area. SO if the WSB does not specifically state "Both feet out" or "toes touching spots", etc, then the Ops question is answered.

[22 shooter]

That wsb really only requires the shooter to be touching something outside the shooting area.

Should have read both feet outside the shooting area if they wanted to really start the shooter outside the shooting area

How does "Start pos. standing outside the shooting area handgun loaded arms relaxed at sides" equal your "touching something outside the shooting area"?

Touching something outside the shooting are is not, no matter how you look at it, standing outside the shooting area. I'm all for people that game stages but that is ridiculous. How about just doing what the wsb says?

If I were to tell you to go stand on my left you wouldn't stand in front of me, while touching something on my left, and try to claim that you are now "standing on my left". Just my very humble opinion but USPSA needs to stop these start position gaming tactics. Once the timer goes off then game all you want.

if you touch anything outside the shooting area you are outside of the shooting area. You earn a procedural for leaning on a wall that is not connected to the shooting area so it stands to reason you are indeed outside the shooting area.

Sure if the wsb says hands at sides yadda yadda then of course that holds. But if the wsb says starting outside the shooting area you can actually reach out and touch an unattached wall, table, etc and actually be standing well within the shooting area. Those are covered in the rules

If touching anything outside the shooting area means I am outside of the shooting area. I am also touching inside the shooting area so I am inside the shooting area, am I not? So would I not be starting inside the shooting area?

UGH.....

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting, providing doing so does not violate (2.2.1.5 or 3.2.6)

Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground)

leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the

competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least

one foot on the ground inside the shooting area.

Ugh

We're not talking about shooting from outside the box, we're talking about starting from outside the box. But, if I get a procedural for touching outside the box while shooting, Why would I not get a procedural for touching inside the box, when the wsb says start from outside the box?

[motosapiens]

Ugh

We're not talking about shooting from outside the box, we're talking about starting from outside the box. But, if I get a procedural for touching outside the box while shooting, Why would I not get a procedural for touching inside the box, when the wsb says start from outside the box?

Because the wsb doesn't say 'both feet completely out of the box'. Having one foot out of the box definitely satisfies the requirement to be 'outside the box', but it doesn't satisfy a requirement to 'have both feet outside the box'. i think every outside the box start I have EVER done has specified toes or heels on x's. I didn't know why until now.

The rules are pretty specific about what it means to be outside the box while shooting (touching anything outside the box). There's nothing in the rules to indicate that 'outside the box' has any different meaning for starting. And there's no reason for more rules, because it's a situation that is easily addressed with a specific wsb.

Edited April 8, 2014 by motosapiens

[Ssanders224]

That wsb really only requires the shooter to be touching something outside the shooting area.

Should have read both feet outside the shooting area if they wanted to really start the shooter outside the shooting area

How does "Start pos. standing outside the shooting area handgun loaded arms relaxed at sides" equal your "touching something outside the shooting area"?

Touching something outside the shooting are is not, no matter how you look at it, standing outside the shooting area. I'm all for people that game stages but that is ridiculous. How about just doing what the wsb says?

If I were to tell you to go stand on my left you wouldn't stand in front of me, while touching something on my left, and try to claim that you are now "standing on my left". Just my very humble opinion but USPSA needs to stop these start position gaming tactics. Once the timer goes off then game all you want.

if you touch anything outside the shooting area you are outside of the shooting area. You earn a procedural for leaning on a wall that is not connected to the shooting area so it stands to reason you are indeed outside the shooting area.

Sure if the wsb says hands at sides yadda yadda then of course that holds. But if the wsb says starting outside the shooting area you can actually reach out and touch an unattached wall, table, etc and actually be standing well within the shooting area. Those are covered in the rules

If touching anything outside the shooting area means I am outside of the shooting area. I am also touching inside the shooting area so I am inside the shooting area, am I not? So would I not be starting inside the shooting area?

UGH.....

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting, providing doing so does not violate (2.2.1.5 or 3.2.6)

Shots fired after completely (both feet out and touching the ground)

leaving a shooting area will be penalized one penalty per shot until the

competitor establishes a presence in a new shooting area with at least

one foot on the ground inside the shooting area.

Ugh

We're not talking about shooting from outside the box, we're talking about starting from outside the box. But, if I get a procedural for touching outside the box while shooting, Why would I not get a procedural for touching inside the box, when the wsb says start from outside the box?

I think the problem is that you are taking it upon yourself to define what "outside of the box" means. We play a game that has very specific rules, and definitions for terms we don't get to insert our interpretation. However, we don't have a definite definition in the rule book for this particular scenario.

SO, the closest thing we DO have, is how the rule book defines being "outside" of the shooting area during a course of fire. If the WSB is written with the vague statement "standing outside of shooting area", or worse, "starting outside of the shooting area", I think it is an acceptable practice to reach for the closest definition of being outside a shooting area that the rule book gives.

[Ssanders224]

Because the wsb doesn't say 'both feet completely out of the box'. Having one foot out of the box definitely satisfies the requirement to be 'outside the box', but it doesn't satisfy a requirement to 'have both feet outside the box'. i think every outside the box start I have EVER done has specified toes or heels on x's. I didn't know why until now.

The rules are pretty specific about what it means to be outside the box while shooting (touching anything outside the box). There's nothing in the rules to indicate that 'outside the box' has any different meaning for starting. And there's no reason for more rules, because it's a situation that is easily addressed with a specific wsb.

Check out stage 3 & 10 of the upcoming Area 6 match. Both state "Standing anywhere outside of shooting area".

http://uspsa6.org/new/2014a6_matchbook.pdf

Edited April 8, 2014 by Ssanders224

[Sarge]

There is no such thing as a procedural for be inside a shooting area.

You would not get any procedural at the start because you are legally starting outside the shooting area

If you are wholly inside the shooting area the RO would simply not start you

The rule was quoted to clarify what constitutes outside a shooting area, shooting or not

[Sarge]

Oh man! Stage 10 could be started with one foot outside to either side of the box giving a much closer presentation quicker! Nice

Because the wsb doesn't say 'both feet completely out of the box'. Having one foot out of the box definitely satisfies the requirement to be 'outside the box', but it doesn't satisfy a requirement to 'have both feet outside the box'. i think every outside the box start I have EVER done has specified toes or heels on x's. I didn't know why until now.

The rules are pretty specific about what it means to be outside the box while shooting (touching anything outside the box). There's nothing in the rules to indicate that 'outside the box' has any different meaning for starting. And there's no reason for more rules, because it's a situation that is easily addressed with a specific wsb.

Check out stage 3 & 10 of the upcoming Area 6 match. Both state "Standing anywhere outside of shooting area".

http://uspsa6.org/new/2014a6_matchbook.pdf

[CHA-LEE]

A common failure mode most new stage designers have is they get totally blinded by their intended way a stage should be shot, started or whatever. They get so focused on how they believe the stage should be tackled that they usually miss gaping holes in the Stage design or WSB that shooters will find and exploit.

I firmly believe that every stage design and supporting WSB should have a predefined intent in how it "should" be shot. But the only way that can really happen is if you develop the WSB and physically build the stage in a way that eliminates all other unintended options. This takes a lot more thought and effort to game proof a stage design so it ends up being shot as you intend it to be. If you ignore all of the possible ways the stage can be shot or how a WSB can be interpreted and simply assume that shooters will shoot the stage as YOU intended it to be shot, then you will continually be disappointed.

Use your fellow shooters as test subjects on your proposed stages. Have them review the verbiage in the WSB to see if they can identify any holes. When you setup the stage have "Gamer" shooters look at it and point out possible ways of shooting the stage that you may have missed. It takes a lot of trial and error to find the correct balance between being super restrictive or not being restrictive enough. That and the shooters skills in gaming stages or WSB's is always evolving, so its always a learning situation on both sides of the street.

[CHA-LEE]

For the record..... When I attend local USPSA Club matches and find gaping holes in the WSB or physical stage design I will point it out to the stage designer or match director so the issue can be correct before the match. I don't think its very productive to exploit holes in stages at the club level because it usually only creates animosity between competitors and the volunteers that bust their hump to make the match happen. That and a lot of times they don't even realize the issue exists until I point it out.

When I attend major matches, if I find a gaping hole in the WSB or physical stage design I will exploit it if its an advantage. When the RO, RM or MD get their shorts in a twist when I do it, I simply tell them that its a very good lesson for them to learn. If you leave a gaping hole in a stage that a Mac Truck can be driven through, then a Mac Truck is going to drive through it. If you don't want that to happen then put more effort into debugging the WSB or physical stage design.

[a matt]

Well, we have a stage briefing at Area 6 that says standing outside the shooting area. I'll bet 1000 match federal SSP or a pound of N320 that our feet will be outside the shooting area and non of that I'm touching something outside stuff.

.

I have spoke to 5 different CRO the run the Nats all said they will not start anyone trying to start that way.

My issue is at local matches the guys and gals are just trying to get the stages up so the rest of us can shoot. I feel a level one match stages should be shot as intended level 2 or 3. Anything that's legal goes.

Thanks for all the imput and thoughts.

Edited April 8, 2014 by a matt

[Ssanders224]

Well, we have a stage briefing at Area 6 that says standing outside the shooting area. I'll bet 1000 match federal SSP or a pound of N320 that our feet will be outside the shooting area and non of that I'm touching something outside stuff.

Well, we have a stage briefing at Area 6 that says standing outside the shooting area. I'll bet 1000 match federal SSP or a pound of N320 that our feet will be outside the shooting area and non of that I'm touching something outside stuff. Sorry I didn't read all the responses, but both feet are going to be out. Out. Lol

I have spoke to 5 different CRO the run the Nats all said they will not start anyone trying to start that way.

I'd love to hear what rule they would use to back up that decision.

Define it in the WSB, or cite a rule that does so. Anything else is pretty lame IMO.