2011 Grip Safety

[ss+P]

Ok I know this has probably been brought up 1000 times before, however I was reading rules for a 2014 match and I read a rule speaking of passive safeties.

I pulled this section from the rules. "passive safety is a safety that engages automatically and disables the firearm from discharging while the firearm is not being handled."

the grip safety of a 1911/2011 satisfies these demands. it automatically engages and disables the firearm from being discharged when not handled.

I have shot a few 3 gun matches and know that for 2011's it is either safety on or empty the gun before you place it in a dump barrel. I am more asking this question to see if something new has come out or if I am not understanding the rules. not trying to start any fires, just trying to understand the rules.

Thanks for your input.

[Benelli Chick]

I think you are probably reading Blueridge's rules.

Andy has tried to level out the Glocks (never have to put the external safety on because there isn't one) and 1911s.

How is it less safe with a grip safety sitting alone in a bucket??

So, at Andy's match, if you put the 1911 down with the external safety off, it has ammo in it, AND your passive safety is still in working order, then you're okay.

Most matches have not followed him in this yet! There MAY be another match out there doing this now, but I think it's just Andy's!

As I understand it, you will have to prove you safety is still working if the situation arises!

[ss+P]

Benelli Chick I agree, it is not Blueridge's rules. I haven't read there's.

I understand the points that the MD's are making. If I have to prove my grip safety is working shouldn't someone shooting a "Safe Action Trigger" also have to prove that there trigger works when the hinge or center bar of the trigger aren't pressed.

Just trying to ask the right questions and get answers. I may contact the MD of the match on this issue for clarification, just don't want to stir the pot.

[Bryan 45]

Denise, it's still a proceedural penalty at BRM3G for a 1911/2011 with the manual safety disengaged and the grip safety functional.

Stage DQ if the grip safety is non-functional.

Addressing ss+P's comments, you'd have to tell us which match so we could read the rules, but generally it also says something about all manual safeties engaged.

[ss+P]

Bryan 45, I just went back to the page and it does say something to extent. may not be the exact wording, but you are correct.

so that answers my question no need to continue. Thanks

[sperman]

There are some threads on here where guys have spring loaded their thumb safeties, so that when they remove their thumb the safety automatically engages.

[ss+P]

yeah I know a guy who can make that operate in that fashion.

so if the 1911/2011 didn't have the manual safety would the grip safety satisfy the "passive safety" rule. don't know if it can be done, just thinking about it.

[StealthyBlagga]

yeah I know a guy who can make that operate in that fashion.

so if the 1911/2011 didn't have the manual safety would the grip safety satisfy the "passive safety" rule. don't know if it can be done, just thinking about it.

IMHO a 1911 grip safety is not an adequate safety feature as it is exposed and thus too easily defeated (e.g. if the gun moves in the abandonment receptacle). The flip side is the case of a modern safe-action pistol like the M&P that is available with or without a thumb safety. We updated SMM3G rules for 2014 in an attempt to clarify the various "safe" conditions for the different types of handguns:

...Single-action auto must have a manual safety catch in the “safe” position. Double-action auto must be decocked. Safe-action auto must have fully functional passive safeties. Revolver must have the hammer down.

Edited March 13, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[MickB]

So, can a CZ action start and finish with hammer cocked and safety engaged, or must it be decocked like in USPSA Production?

Mick

Edited March 14, 2014 by MickB

[StealthyBlagga]

CZ75 can be abandoned same as a 1911 - cocked and locked. Actually the same is legal for USPSA, except for Production.

[sperman]

It's legal in production too, at least the way I read the rules.

[T Bacus]

Typical silliness in the name of 'safety'. Once abandoned a 1911 with all safeties off is no more likely to go off on it's own than any other gun.

[okorpheus]

It's legal in production too, at least the way I read the rules.

Not if you mean start position in USPSA production. In production, handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal

[StealthyBlagga]

Typical silliness in the name of 'safety'. Once abandoned a 1911 with all safeties off is no more likely to go off on it's own than any other gun.

Not really true, especially given how rough most competitors are when abandoning their guns on the clock - a lot of shooters literally throw their guns into the receptacle, and the guns often bounce and slide around in the receptacle after the shooter abandons them. This latitude of movement is unavoidable given that the receptacle has to be designed to accommodate anything from a compact carry gun to an Open race gun. One way to reign this in might be to tighten the rules on abandonment so that the shooter must retain control of, and continuous contact with, the gun until it is placed securely in the receptacle and stops moving - like in USPSA pistol rules, no more throwing - but this would introduce an unwelcome new area of RO discretion that I would really like to avoid if at all possible.

A modern "safe action" type pistol is safe even when roughly handled because of the redundant passive safeties that are integral to the design, and which engage automatically when the pistol leaves the shooters hand; typically they have both a trigger safety and a striker block safety. The first is recessed in the trigger guard and the second is internal, and both would have to be defeated to make the gun discharge. On the other hand, I'd say a very large percentage of 1911-type competition pistols have NO passive safeties, and worse they have single-action triggers with very short length of travel and weight measured in ounces. As I indicated above, I would not consider a grip safety, even if functional, to be as inherently safe and failure proof as the trigger safety and striker block of more modern pistols.

Safety IS critically important in our sport, and I am very much against cutting corners to pander to the 1911 crowd just 'cause they want to shave that fraction of a second it takes to engage their safety. Sorry - don't want to use a thumb safety, get a more modern pistol.

Edited March 14, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[ac4wordplay]

Typical silliness in the name of 'safety'. Once abandoned a 1911 with all safeties off is no more likely to go off on it's own than any other gun.

Not really true, especially given how rough most competitors are when abandoning their guns on the clock - a lot of shooters literally throw their guns into the receptacle, and the guns often bounce and slide around in the receptacle after the shooter abandons them. This latitude of movement is unavoidable given that the receptacle has to be designed to accommodate anything from a compact carry gun to an Open race gun. One way to reign this in might be to tighten the rules on abandonment so that the shooter must retain control of, and continuous contact with, the gun until it is placed securely in the receptacle and stops moving - like in USPSA pistol rules, no more throwing - but this would introduce an unwelcome new area of RO discretion that I would really like to avoid if at all possible.

A modern "safe action" type pistol is safe even when roughly handled because of the redundant passive safeties that are integral to the design, and which engage automatically when the pistol leaves the shooters hand; typically they have both a trigger safety and a striker block safety. The first is recessed in the trigger guard and the second is internal, and both would have to be defeated to make the gun discharge. On the other hand, I'd say a very large percentage of 1911-type competition pistols have NO passive safeties, and worse they have single-action triggers with very short length of travel and weight measured in ounces. As I indicated above, I would not consider a grip safety, even if functional, to be as inherently safe and failure proof as the trigger safety and striker block of more modern pistols.

Safety IS critically important in our sport, and I am very much against cutting corners to pander to the 1911 crowd just 'cause they want to shave that fraction of a second it takes to engage their safety. Sorry - don't want to use a thumb safety, get a more modern pistol.

Well stated.

[sperman]

It's legal in production too, at least the way I read the rules.

Not if you mean start position in USPSA production. In production, handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal

I was referring to the gun being abandoned, not the start position.

[GM2B]

That 1/4 second it takes to put on thumb safety is still a huge advantage over a modern polymer gun. Us 1911 guys have better triggers for every shot we take. I have seen some nice M&P triggers but they weren't 2lbs with virtually no take up like my STI!

[springy]

Mostly, on 1911's, the grip safety only blocks the trigger. The sear is free to drop the hammer. The manual safety locks the sear, which locks the hammer. Basically a totally safe firearm unless a round cooks off.

I'm not seeing anyone reference the firing pin block. There are many 1911's out there with a firing pin block. That pin block only unlocks the firing pin when the trigger is pulled. The pin block system is actually better than the manual safety? At the least it's equal to the glocks and mp's?

And on a few Kimbers, I've seen the grip safety release the firing pin block.

So I'm thinking at tech inspection before the match starts, you have inspection teams in place to check if the firing pin block is functional. If it is, they wire an inspection tag on the trigger guard so the RO will know it's alright to just throw the sonofabitch in a bucket and move on.........

[T Bacus]

I'd say a very large percentage of 1911-type competition pistols have NO passive safeties,

You can say it but you're wrong. Every 1911, even competition ones, has a passive safety built into the design that prevents the gun from firing if the trigger is not pulled.

[StealthyBlagga]

I'd say a very large percentage of 1911-type competition pistols have NO passive safeties,

You can say it but you're wrong. Every 1911, even competition ones, has a passive safety built into the design that prevents the gun from firing if the trigger is not pulled.

Errm - have you ever looked inside a 1911? The only passive safety in the original pre-80 design was the grip safety, which many competitors defeat by pinning, taping or internal grinding. The Colt Series 80 and Kimber add firing pin blocks, but these also are often removed due to the effect on trigger pull. Without a firing pin block, the 1911 firing pin is free floating and in principle able to hit the primer if dropped on the muzzle (even with safety engaged), The half-cock notch is a marginal safety feature at best.

Edited April 21, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[StealthyBlagga]

...So I'm thinking at tech inspection before the match starts, you have inspection teams in place to check if the firing pin block is functional. If it is, they wire an inspection tag on the trigger guard so the RO will know it's alright to just throw the sonofabitch in a bucket and move on.........

Do the folks who run your local 3-Gun match have time to do such a detailed inspection of each gun to confirm the passive safeties work? Do you have a procedure for doing so for all the different guns out there without disassembling them? Sorry - in my experience what you propose is completely unrealistic.

Edited April 21, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[T Bacus]

Errm - have you ever looked inside a 1911? The only passive safety in the original pre-80 design was the grip safety, which many competitors defeat by pinning, taping or internal grinding. The Colt Series 80 and Kimber add firing pin blocks, but these also are often removed due to the effect on trigger pull. Without a firing pin block, the 1911 firing pin is free floating and in principle able to hit the primer if dropped on the muzzle (even with safety engaged), The half-cock notch is a marginal safety feature at best.

I may have seen the inside of one or two 1911's. You may believe the half-cock notch is marginal, but you're saying so does not make it true. The half-cock notch prevents the hammer from striking the firing pin if the trigger is not held to the rear wile the hammer falls. You are also incorrect in your statement that the firing pin of a 1911 is "free floating". An AR-15 has a free floating firing pin, the firing pin of a 1911 is spring loaded to the rear and the resistance of this spring must be overcome to fire the gun.

[ss+P]

wow, been a while sense I looked at this thread. didn't mean to start the argument again.

flicking the safety on doesn't take much, it just sucks to be DQ'd if/when it comes off. I don't know about you all but I am not taking down Horner, Jordon, or any of the other top 3 gunners anytime soon so I just unload the dam thing so I can get to the prize table and enjoy myself at the matches.

If safety is so paramount then every gun should be unloaded when abandoned.

Any gun could go off when "thrown"/placed in a dump bucket. it is literally that, a bucket with a piece of wood screwed or zip tied (from my experiences) in it. the wood could splinter and catch the trigger or hit the zip tie or screw and go off. safe action or not. yes it may be one in a million but it would only have to happen once.

I will say this, most every match that I have attended I have felt safe at and thought that the staff and RO's have done a great job and I thank them for taking time out of their schedule to put these matches on.

[Ranger6]

Food for thought: Perhaps we should go with the NRA safety rules (3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.)

I noticed that the AMU shooters were unloading (completely) their guns prior to dumping them at the last Nationals. That would eliminate a lot of "issues". All firearms would be unloaded; no dependence on a safety device that could fail.

Again, just a thought.

Ranger6

[SinistralRifleman]

Food for thought: Perhaps we should go with the NRA safety rules (3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.)

I noticed that the AMU shooters were unloading (completely) their guns prior to dumping them at the last Nationals. That would eliminate a lot of "issues". All firearms would be unloaded; no dependence on a safety device that could fail.

Again, just a thought.

Ranger6

Unloading completely is never wrong at any match, and if you want to shoot the whole match it's the safest thing to do.

If some people want to risk safeties coming off, that's on them I suppose.