Tom E Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) Looks like the best thing to do is...no power factor. Projectile must pass thru target and backer to be scored, steel must be knocked down.Many ploblems solved. Tom Yeah except for the whole DVC concept that this was founded on.....but hey if we are changing things why not change that and let 10 round 22 revolvers play Why not? The open guys shoot what might as well be high capacity .22LRs aside from the ridiculous price tags attached... Edited February 20, 2014 by Tom E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Looks like the best thing to do is...no power factor. Projectile must pass thru target and backer to be scored, steel must be knocked down.Many ploblems solved. Tom Yeah except for the whole DVC concept that this was founded on.....but hey if we are changing things why not change that and let 10 round 22 revolvers playWhy not? The open guys shoot what might as well be high capacity .22LRs aside from the ridiculous price tags attached...And that 115gr bullet at 1450 feet per second. Get your 40gr 22 over 4000fps and we can talk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Looks like the best thing to do is...no power factor. Projectile must pass thru target and backer to be scored, steel must be knocked down.Many ploblems solved. Tom Yeah except for the whole DVC concept that this was founded on.....but hey if we are changing things why not change that and let 10 round 22 revolvers playWhy not? The open guys shoot what might as well be high capacity .22LRs aside from the ridiculous price tags attached...And that 115gr bullet at 1450 feet per second. Get your 40gr 22 over 4000fps and we can talk When your gun has the recoil of a 22LR who cares what the power factor is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Looks like the best thing to do is...no power factor. Projectile must pass thru target and backer to be scored, steel must be knocked down.Many ploblems solved. Tom Yeah except for the whole DVC concept that this was founded on.....but hey if we are changing things why not change that and let 10 round 22 revolvers playWhy not? The open guys shoot what might as well be high capacity .22LRs aside from the ridiculous price tags attached...And that 115gr bullet at 1450 feet per second.Get your 40gr 22 over 4000fps and we can talk When your gun has the recoil of a 22LR who cares what the power factor is? There is an opening for a USPSA president could be a good platform to run on, give it a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Easy Jake. What's that saying about arguing and getting dragged down and beaten with experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Easy Jake. What's that saying about arguing and getting dragged down and beaten with experience? Not sure on that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Easy Jake. What's that saying about arguing and getting dragged down and beaten with experience?I was thinking we should spend some time whining about the power factor having been dropped to 165 for the open boys. Maybe all the revolver guys can go to the open forum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 So, good to know of you wheel gunners. Declare correct division before the first shot fired. We have all declared the right division allready (Revolver). At the revolver nationals how would they bump you to Open. That division is not recognized at that match? Going to be lonely division. guaranteed 1st place Not if there's a few of you...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Can Just because Jay said that with an authoritative tone doesn't necessarily mean he is right. But presuming he is RM at Nationals again this year, we can assume that's the way the rule will be enforced there. Thanks for the heads-up. The way the USPSA rules are written, any violation of declared division/PF moves the shooter to OPEN. An L10 shooter with more than 10 rounds in the gun at start gets bumped to OPEN, not Limited. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how it is. 6.2.5.1 Interestingly, 6.2.5 says "... When a competitor fails to declare a specific division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor's equipment..." So maybe the answer is don't declare a division? I don't think online apps allow for that, and you'd probably get a phone call or email from stats if you left it blank on a paper app. So, good to know of you wheel gunners. Declare correct division before the first shot fired. I can understand if you declare one division and then starting shooting a gun for a different division, e.g. the L v.s. L10 example above. But can NO ONE change their division between the time you send in your application and you actually start shooting? LIke if a guy registered to shoot Production sells his gun or it breaks a day before the match, can't he change what division he is shooting? I can understand the headaches it can cause if a bunch of folks rushed the stats table, but how about the rule was something like, your last chance to make any changes was at the time you picked up your score sheets and registered? After that, tough. I don't expect that I will be bringing two guns and deciding just prior, but i would like the flexibility to change if I needed to (gun not working, out of ammo, just a whim, etc) Steve You can change your division at any time up until you fire the first shot. Even if you get out to the stage, and inform the stage staff, they'll figure out a way to deal with the situation. (Please let stats know before your first stage, o.k.?) I needed to make a division change once at the Summer Blast, and Linda Chico accommodated me and a few others with a smile -- but we all did it at check-in, where we were asked to confirm our class and division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 You have the choice to change to major or minor or to what ever other division you want before you fire your first round. Nothing on the sign up sheet is written in stone. Your declaration means nothing, really, unless the crono breaks or is not used for some reason before you shoot your ammo through it. Than whatever your declaration is that stands for the match. If you shot and your ammo didn't make it or was sub-minor that also would stand as long as the crono was calibrated before you shot. This just happened at the FL Open. You could take your (minor) 8 shooter to the first stage and fire your first round and up to six rounds, than decide to change guns (if its first ok'ed by the RM) to your six shooter. You of course would still be shooting minor for the entire match. If you started with your six shooter than changed your mind, mid-match or (had a break down) and (if its first ok'ed by the RM) you could change to your 8 shooter. Than, you would if you had crono'ed already be required before the end of the match to crono again with the new gun, vis-a-vis if you please. I wonder how many people will walk the stages in the morning to find out which to shoot 6/8? Will they than go change their category? I really don't think you have to tell the stat's people anything at all. When you crono, they will change it to whatever you are major, minor or sub-minor if your unlucky, from the score sheet turned into them by the crono stage. If I'm wrong please advise. Actually you do need to tell stats. An on the ball stage staff won't let you start your first stage without a power factor declaration for SS and Revo, because it affects the number of rounds that may be fired between reloads.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Easy Jake. What's that saying about arguing and getting dragged down and beaten with experience?I was thinking we should spend some time whining about the power factor having been dropped to 165 for the open boys. Maybe all the revolver guys can go to the open forum... Ok you first.....go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Now this (change declared pf) can still be done but you will need to declare it to the match staff before you fire your first shot (no rule against it yet) , but i can see a rule getting added to prevent this kind of thing really quick and that decision being put into the Match director/Range Masters hands at match time to allow it or not. I sincerely hope not. I see division/pf changes as being part of the customer service component of stats -- and frankly it didn't seem to be all that hard when Linda was asking competitors at every Summer Blast I shot if the division and class were correct on their labels. I don't know how many corrections she entered at those matches, but I do know that she was willing to do it, and never conveyed a sense of it being a problem..... .....and how many revolver shooters could there possibly be, outside of the Nationals? It's not like you guys are descending by the hundreds yet...... :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 What's an "onus"? Onus -- [Latin] Burden, Obligation. Sorry -- I was raised by a professor of Ancient History (Greek and Roman Ancient History to be precise) so every once in a while some words with a Latin origin slip in..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 From the DIrector of NROI: Once you declare a power factor the only way it can be changed is if it fails that declared PF when tested at the chrono. John Ouch. I wouldn't even do that as RM; my interpretation is once you fire the first shot you've bought your declaration, and the attached capacity limit...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Looks like the best thing to do is...no power factor. Projectile must pass thru target and backer to be scored, steel must be knocked down.Many ploblems solved. Tom Yeah except for the whole DVC concept that this was founded on.....but hey if we are changing things why not change that and let 10 round 22 revolvers playWhy not? The open guys shoot what might as well be high capacity .22LRs aside from the ridiculous price tags attached...And that 115gr bullet at 1450 feet per second.Get your 40gr 22 over 4000fps and we can talk When your gun has the recoil of a 22LR who cares what the power factor is? I'm pretty sure a good open gun might have the muzzle flip of a .22 with proper technique; I'm equally sure that the recoil impulse generated by the open gun far exceeds that generated by the .22 LR..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Easy Jake. What's that saying about arguing and getting dragged down and beaten with experience?I was thinking we should spend some time whining about the power factor having been dropped to 165 for the open boys. Maybe all the revolver guys can go to the open forum... The PF for Open major has been 165 since at least 2001 in USPSA..... Nothing new here..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slflr Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 What's an "onus"?Onus -- [Latin] Burden, Obligation.Sorry -- I was raised by a professor of Ancient History (Greek and Roman Ancient History to be precise) so every once in a while some words with a Latin origin slip in..... Oh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 From the DIrector of NROI: Once you declare a power factor the only way it can be changed is if it fails that declared PF when tested at the chrono. John Ouch. I wouldn't even do that as RM; my interpretation is once you fire the first shot you've bought your declaration, and the attached capacity limit...... I'd asked John Amidon if someone would be allowed to go to Major if they claimed Minor, as in an open gun, if they had a Major PF at the chrono station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 From the DIrector of NROI: Once you declare a power factor the only way it can be changed is if it fails that declared PF when tested at the chrono. John Ouch. I wouldn't even do that as RM; my interpretation is once you fire the first shot you've bought your declaration, and the attached capacity limit...... I'd asked John Amidon if someone would be allowed to go to Major if they claimed Minor, as in an open gun, if they had a Major PF at the chrono station. If you declare Minor and make any number above 125 then you have made your declared power factor. I don't know of any rule that says otherwise. You declared minor, you made minor, your get scored as minor. If you decide to make minor with 165+ power factor loads that is your choice. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Easy Jake. What's that saying about arguing and getting dragged down and beaten with experience?I was thinking we should spend some time whining about the power factor having been dropped to 165 for the open boys. Maybe all the revolver guys can go to the open forum...The PF for Open major has been 165 since at least 2001 in USPSA..... Nothing new here..... Yes it's a done deal, as is 8 shot minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 From the DIrector of NROI: Once you declare a power factor the only way it can be changed is if it fails that declared PF when tested at the chrono. John Ouch. I wouldn't even do that as RM; my interpretation is once you fire the first shot you've bought your declaration, and the attached capacity limit...... I'd asked John Amidon if someone would be allowed to go to Major if they claimed Minor, as in an open gun, if they had a Major PF at the chrono station. That's a little different from what was asked...... And if you declare minor on the match app, I'll still give you the option of changing it to major at registration. Once you've fired the first shot though, you own the declaration..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 From the DIrector of NROI: Once you declare a power factor the only way it can be changed is if it fails that declared PF when tested at the chrono. John Ouch. I wouldn't even do that as RM; my interpretation is once you fire the first shot you've bought your declaration, and the attached capacity limit...... I'd asked John Amidon if someone would be allowed to go to Major if they claimed Minor, as in an open gun, if they had a Major PF at the chrono station. That's a little different from what was asked...... And if you declare minor on the match app, I'll still give you the option of changing it to major at registration. Once you've fired the first shot though, you own the declaration..... I knew the answer to the question, but wanted to hear it from John. The idea behind the question was someone earlier had stated that they would just claim Minor, check out the courses and if it's not an advantage just shoot a 625 in Major and the chrono will tell the tale and they would score major. I didn't believe you could jump up to Major after claiming Minor regardless of the chrono, though you wouldn't be put in open either for it as long as you were shooting a 6 shot. The only way to go to Open is if you claim Major and shoot a 7th shot. If you claim Minor and shoot your 6 shooter and forget to tell stats to change you to Major, you'll just be shooting Minor with some heavier loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9146gt Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Looks like the best thing to do is...no power factor. Projectile must pass thru target and backer to be scored, steel must be knocked down.Many ploblems solved. Tom Yeah except for the whole DVC concept that this was founded on.....but hey if we are changing things why not change that and let 10 round 22 revolvers playWhy not? The open guys shoot what might as well be high capacity .22LRs aside from the ridiculous price tags attached...And that 115gr bullet at 1450 feet per second.Get your 40gr 22 over 4000fps and we can talk When your gun has the recoil of a 22LR who cares what the power factor is? I'm pretty sure a good open gun might have the muzzle flip of a .22 with proper technique; I'm equally sure that the recoil impulse generated by the open gun far exceeds that generated by the .22 LR..... How does DVC explain Major and minor? Shoot What FPS works for you and if a .22 knocks down steel you are good to go. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Probably the part about power... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Looks like the best thing to do is...no power factor. Projectile must pass thru target and backer to be scored, steel must be knocked down.Many ploblems solved. Tom Yeah except for the whole DVC concept that this was founded on.....but hey if we are changing things why not change that and let 10 round 22 revolvers playWhy not? The open guys shoot what might as well be high capacity .22LRs aside from the ridiculous price tags attached...And that 115gr bullet at 1450 feet per second.Get your 40gr 22 over 4000fps and we can talk When your gun has the recoil of a 22LR who cares what the power factor is? I'm pretty sure a good open gun might have the muzzle flip of a .22 with proper technique; I'm equally sure that the recoil impulse generated by the open gun far exceeds that generated by the .22 LR..... How does DVC explain Major and minor? Shoot What FPS works for you and if a .22 knocks down steel you are good to go. Tom Do you know what DVC stands for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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