beltjones Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I may have inhaled too much case lube this afternoon but while running 500 pieces of brass through the resizing die and then Lee bulge buster kit but I started thinking about a new USPSA division so here's the idea. Take our current Production division and rename it to Production 10. It remains exactly as it is today. The only thing that changes is the name. Create a new Production division that has the same rules as production have today but with the following modifications: 1 - High capacity magazines can be filled to full capacity. 2 - Major power factor permitted with 165 floor like other divisions. 3 - .40 S&W caliber or greater required for Major power factor. I know a lot of shooters will make the jump from production to limited (that's what I did back in the day). I'm sure there's lots of things I haven't thought through yet but I wanted to toss the idea out there and see what others thought about it. I don't know why these ideas to change divisions always seem to come from someone who doesn't even compete in the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) People laugh and joke and stomp their feet and cry when these type of threads surface and it's all in good fun. But, with that said, I'm serious about Production Optic Production Optic is the only other division I'd ever consider. It is becoming hugely popular with the carry crowd and will only continue to grow. Couple that with the fact that our membership is also maturing and the benefits of less recoil and easy to see sights speak for themselves. I believe that USPSA will address this at some point. It just makes too much sense and the growth opportunity for this type of division is huge. It's one division that has the potential to draw some new shooters and actually KEEP shooters that otherwise might hang it up due to some of the physical demands of our sport. PRODUCTION OPTIC Edited February 3, 2014 by Chris iliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 People laugh and joke and stomp their feet and cry when these type of threads surface and it's all in good fun. But, with that said, I'm serious about Production Optic Production Optic is the only other division I'd ever consider. It is becoming hugely popular with the carry crowd and will only continue to grow. Couple that with the fact that our membership is also maturing and the benefits of less recoil and easy to see sights speak for themselves. I believe that USPSA will address this at some point. It just makes too much sense and the growth opportunity for this type of division is huge. It's one division that has the potential to draw some new shooters and actually KEEP shooters that otherwise might hang it up due to some of the physical demands of our sport. PRODUCTION OPTIC How would the physical demands be less in this then open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecmc Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 What's next Open Revolver division ? .....hmm. I like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) While I would love a Production Optics div I was also serious about changing the Production div to allow you to fill your production mags to their capacity. I don't understand how the division can mandate that you must leave your gun in basically a production configuration but then artificially limit how many rds you can put in the stock mag? What does limiting the number of rds you can put in the mag have to do with it being Production representative or not? Who buys a Glock 19 and only loads 10 rds in it (in the non socialist states of course)? Maybe by the time I'm ready to switch to Open, Production Optic will be a reality and i won't have to switch .... Edited February 3, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I believe the Optics y'all are referring to would be milled into the slide, correct? That way you can use a kydex style or non-race type holster? @Nimitz...I feel the same way about the capacity issue. I really think they should look into the change to 15rds division capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Right now there is a long list of guns that are competitive in Production. If you change the rules so that you can load to magazine capacity, it would obsolete any gun that isn't a 9mm, and put any gun that doesn't hold 18 rounds at a disadvantage. How would that be good for our sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Right now there is a long list of guns that are competitive in Production. If you change the rules so that you can load to magazine capacity, it would obsolete any gun that isn't a 9mm, and put any gun that doesn't hold 18 rounds at a disadvantage. How would that be good for our sport? Because there would be less production shooters Edited February 3, 2014 by Supermoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Right now there is a long list of guns that are competitive in Production. If you change the rules so that you can load to magazine capacity, it would obsolete any gun that isn't a 9mm, and put any gun that doesn't hold 18 rounds at a disadvantage. How would that be good for our sport? What guns wouldn't be able to hold 15 rds that would be competitive and are on the list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JYC405 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 New York safe act will let you load 10 rounds at the range or for competition, the 7 round limit is for carry only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 While I would love a Production Optics div I was also serious about changing the Production div to allow you to fill your production mags to their capacity. I don't understand how the division can mandate that you must leave your gun in basically a production configuration but then artificially limit how many rds you can put in the stock mag? What does limiting the number of rds you can put in the mag have to do with it being Production representative or not? Who buys a Glock 19 and only loads 10 rds in it (in the non socialist states of course)? Maybe by the time I'm ready to switch to Open, Production Optic will be a reality and i won't have to switch .... You know how Production is an arms race, with everybody clamoring to get the new CZ/Tanfo hotness? Now imagine that it starts all over again with everyone trying to get the new Production gun that holds 20 rounds in a factory mag instead of just 17. This happened once before, and that's why IPSC stipulated 15 rounds in the first place. If you can believe it, at one point the Para LDA was the hot ticket because of mag capacity. Do we really want that to happen again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 People laugh and joke and stomp their feet and cry when these type of threads surface and it's all in good fun. But, with that said, I'm serious about Production Optic Production Optic is the only other division I'd ever consider. It is becoming hugely popular with the carry crowd and will only continue to grow. Couple that with the fact that our membership is also maturing and the benefits of less recoil and easy to see sights speak for themselves. I believe that USPSA will address this at some point. It just makes too much sense and the growth opportunity for this type of division is huge. It's one division that has the potential to draw some new shooters and actually KEEP shooters that otherwise might hang it up due to some of the physical demands of our sport. PRODUCTION OPTIC Attracting the carry crowd or the tactical crowd assumes that USPSA will actually market itself to that crowd. Simply adding a division isn't going to get people out of bed on a Saturday to come shoot a match. It's going to take a lot more than that, and I'd like to see some moves made in the direction of attracting new members before they go tinkering with new divisions. I mean, I cannot remember the last time I was at the range practicing - with just a pistol - and someone asked me if I shoot USPSA. I can remember dozens of times that they asked me if I shoot 3-Gun. The awareness of USPSA among the general public is nil, and that needs to change before adding a new division will accomplish anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 While I would love a Production Optics div I was also serious about changing the Production div to allow you to fill your production mags to their capacity. I don't understand how the division can mandate that you must leave your gun in basically a production configuration but then artificially limit how many rds you can put in the stock mag? What does limiting the number of rds you can put in the mag have to do with it being Production representative or not? Who buys a Glock 19 and only loads 10 rds in it (in the non socialist states of course)? Maybe by the time I'm ready to switch to Open, Production Optic will be a reality and i won't have to switch .... You know how Production is an arms race, with everybody clamoring to get the new CZ/Tanfo hotness? Now imagine that it starts all over again with everyone trying to get the new Production gun that holds 20 rounds in a factory mag instead of just 17. This happened once before, and that's why IPSC stipulated 15 rounds in the first place. If you can believe it, at one point the Para LDA was the hot ticket because of mag capacity. Do we really want that to happen again? Why hasn't USPSA adopted the 15 round capacity limit for production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) Because not every state in the Union allows more than 10 rounds. USPSA...public awareness?...strategic planning?...effective marketing?...proper classifier organization/calibration? LOL While I would love a Production Optics div I was also serious about changing the Production div to allow you to fill your production mags to their capacity. I don't understand how the division can mandate that you must leave your gun in basically a production configuration but then artificially limit how many rds you can put in the stock mag? What does limiting the number of rds you can put in the mag have to do with it being Production representative or not? Who buys a Glock 19 and only loads 10 rds in it (in the non socialist states of course)? Maybe by the time I'm ready to switch to Open, Production Optic will be a reality and i won't have to switch .... You know how Production is an arms race, with everybody clamoring to get the new CZ/Tanfo hotness? Now imagine that it starts all over again with everyone trying to get the new Production gun that holds 20 rounds in a factory mag instead of just 17. This happened once before, and that's why IPSC stipulated 15 rounds in the first place. If you can believe it, at one point the Para LDA was the hot ticket because of mag capacity. Do we really want that to happen again? Why hasn't USPSA adopted the 15 round capacity limit for production? Edited February 4, 2014 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Because not every state in the Union allows more than 10 rounds. USPSA...public awareness?...strategic planning?...effective marketing?...proper classifier organization/calibration? LOL While I would love a Production Optics div I was also serious about changing the Production div to allow you to fill your production mags to their capacity. I don't understand how the division can mandate that you must leave your gun in basically a production configuration but then artificially limit how many rds you can put in the stock mag? What does limiting the number of rds you can put in the mag have to do with it being Production representative or not? Who buys a Glock 19 and only loads 10 rds in it (in the non socialist states of course)? Maybe by the time I'm ready to switch to Open, Production Optic will be a reality and i won't have to switch .... You know how Production is an arms race, with everybody clamoring to get the new CZ/Tanfo hotness? Now imagine that it starts all over again with everyone trying to get the new Production gun that holds 20 rounds in a factory mag instead of just 17. This happened once before, and that's why IPSC stipulated 15 rounds in the first place. If you can believe it, at one point the Para LDA was the hot ticket because of mag capacity. Do we really want that to happen again? Why hasn't USPSA adopted the 15 round capacity limit for production? Then why is Limited or Open not limited to 10 rounds as well? That is not a logical reason, due to the fact that it doesn't inhibit other divisions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Well, because Production was "suppose" to be the entry-division for new shooters. Thus, it's made to be as accessible to as many people as possible. At least that's what I've heard. As far as logic goes, a lot of things regarding USPSA don't make sense. Because not every state in the Union allows more than 10 rounds. USPSA...public awareness?...strategic planning?...effective marketing?...proper classifier organization/calibration? LOL While I would love a Production Optics div I was also serious about changing the Production div to allow you to fill your production mags to their capacity. I don't understand how the division can mandate that you must leave your gun in basically a production configuration but then artificially limit how many rds you can put in the stock mag? What does limiting the number of rds you can put in the mag have to do with it being Production representative or not? Who buys a Glock 19 and only loads 10 rds in it (in the non socialist states of course)? Maybe by the time I'm ready to switch to Open, Production Optic will be a reality and i won't have to switch .... You know how Production is an arms race, with everybody clamoring to get the new CZ/Tanfo hotness? Now imagine that it starts all over again with everyone trying to get the new Production gun that holds 20 rounds in a factory mag instead of just 17. This happened once before, and that's why IPSC stipulated 15 rounds in the first place. If you can believe it, at one point the Para LDA was the hot ticket because of mag capacity. Do we really want that to happen again? Why hasn't USPSA adopted the 15 round capacity limit for production? Then why is Limited or Open not limited to 10 rounds as well? That is not a logical reason, due to the fact that it doesn't inhibit other divisions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Well, because Production was "suppose" to be the entry-division for new shooters. Thus, it's made to be as accessible to as many people as possible. At least that's what I've heard. As far as logic goes, a lot of things regarding USPSA don't make sense. LOL...10-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 The glock 34 would hold 21+1 with the taran base pads and will still fit the box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 The glock 34 would hold 21+1 with the taran base pads and will still fit the box The point is, if the intention is to lower barriers to entry into the sport, then raising the Production mag limits (assuming Production is where new shooters start) isn't going to help. If anything, it will make it more expensive to compete, because people will not only need all the gear they need now, they will also need fancy pants basepads on their magazines, and probably springs and followers, too. If someone is going to make the argument that new shooters don't care about performance, and thus won't factor in that cost when first getting into the sport, then then the same logic would suggest they would be happy starting out in Limited or Open with whatever pistol they already happen to own. Either way, raising the mag limits doesn't make logical sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 15 rounds makes all the sense in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 While I would love a Production Optics div I was also serious about changing the Production div to allow you to fill your production mags to their capacity. I don't understand how the division can mandate that you must leave your gun in basically a production configuration but then artificially limit how many rds you can put in the stock mag? What does limiting the number of rds you can put in the mag have to do with it being Production representative or not? Who buys a Glock 19 and only loads 10 rds in it (in the non socialist states of course)? Maybe by the time I'm ready to switch to Open, Production Optic will be a reality and i won't have to switch .... You know how Production is an arms race, with everybody clamoring to get the new CZ/Tanfo hotness? Now imagine that it starts all over again with everyone trying to get the new Production gun that holds 20 rounds in a factory mag instead of just 17. This happened once before, and that's why IPSC stipulated 15 rounds in the first place. If you can believe it, at one point the Para LDA was the hot ticket because of mag capacity. Do we really want that to happen again? Why hasn't USPSA adopted the 15 round capacity limit for production? Not kosher in all states Not all guns capable of meeting production division equipment rules are capable of holding 15 -- trust me this matters to the weekly match MD who has newbies showing up with Glock 23s, Beretta .40s, Sig 220s, etc. Why fix what isn't broken? We might have to kill some classifiers.... Locally production is more popular than open, so perhaps the real question is why haven't we restricted Open to ten rounds and done away with Limited? We could be more IDPA like and get crossover shooters.... :devil: I was kidding about the last one, really..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 While I would love a Production Optics div I was also serious about changing the Production div to allow you to fill your production mags to their capacity. I don't understand how the division can mandate that you must leave your gun in basically a production configuration but then artificially limit how many rds you can put in the stock mag? What does limiting the number of rds you can put in the mag have to do with it being Production representative or not? Who buys a Glock 19 and only loads 10 rds in it (in the non socialist states of course)? Maybe by the time I'm ready to switch to Open, Production Optic will be a reality and i won't have to switch .... You know how Production is an arms race, with everybody clamoring to get the new CZ/Tanfo hotness? Now imagine that it starts all over again with everyone trying to get the new Production gun that holds 20 rounds in a factory mag instead of just 17. This happened once before, and that's why IPSC stipulated 15 rounds in the first place. If you can believe it, at one point the Para LDA was the hot ticket because of mag capacity. Do we really want that to happen again? Why hasn't USPSA adopted the 15 round capacity limit for production? Not kosher in all states Not all guns capable of meeting production division equipment rules are capable of holding 15 -- trust me this matters to the weekly match MD who has newbies showing up with Glock 23s, Beretta .40s, Sig 220s, etc. Why fix what isn't broken? I don't think that is a valid argument. Each division has allowances that make certain guns or gear more advantageous. 15 rounds is not keeping a new shooter with any of those guns from being competitive. And when a shooter is at the level where it is hindering their competitive ability, time for them to buck up and play the game for real. Production may be the entry level, and cheapest, and blah, blah.....but ammo and components are the real expense, and is what truly sets the level on the playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 15 rounds makes all the sense in the world. No. It would alienate plenty of people in 10 round limit states who play in Production. It's just a preference by a few people who want to avoid a reload or two on a stage who can easily shoot Limited if they want to load up their magazines. Now you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (edited) quote fail. Edited February 4, 2014 by beltjones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 While I would love a Production Optics div I was also serious about changing the Production div to allow you to fill your production mags to their capacity. I don't understand how the division can mandate that you must leave your gun in basically a production configuration but then artificially limit how many rds you can put in the stock mag? What does limiting the number of rds you can put in the mag have to do with it being Production representative or not? Who buys a Glock 19 and only loads 10 rds in it (in the non socialist states of course)? Maybe by the time I'm ready to switch to Open, Production Optic will be a reality and i won't have to switch .... You know how Production is an arms race, with everybody clamoring to get the new CZ/Tanfo hotness? Now imagine that it starts all over again with everyone trying to get the new Production gun that holds 20 rounds in a factory mag instead of just 17. This happened once before, and that's why IPSC stipulated 15 rounds in the first place. If you can believe it, at one point the Para LDA was the hot ticket because of mag capacity. Do we really want that to happen again? Why hasn't USPSA adopted the 15 round capacity limit for production? Not kosher in all states Not all guns capable of meeting production division equipment rules are capable of holding 15 -- trust me this matters to the weekly match MD who has newbies showing up with Glock 23s, Beretta .40s, Sig 220s, etc. Why fix what isn't broken? I don't think that is a valid argument. Each division has allowances that make certain guns or gear more advantageous. 15 rounds is not keeping a new shooter with any of those guns from being competitive. And when a shooter is at the level where it is hindering their competitive ability, time for them to buck up and play the game for real. Production may be the entry level, and cheapest, and blah, blah.....but ammo and components are the real expense, and is what truly sets the level on the playing field. No, your argument is the one that is invalid. As I wrote previously, if you are making the argument that new shooters aren't concerned with relative match performance, and thus they won't mind shooting a gun that doesn't have a capacity of 15 rounds (or more), then the same logic applies to having new shooters shoot in Limited. If one argument is true then so is the other, and it makes more sense to put a new shooter in Limited than it does to fundamentally change the nature of Production division, throw out a bunch of classifiers, force a bunch of current members to buy new magazines, and alienate people in 10 round states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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