New Division Idea

[Nimitz]

There is nothing wrong with trying and failing .... Failing to try is another matter ...

In my mind a Production Optic div has the best of both worlds ... You get to keep all the good things that make Production as popular as it is and you get to shoot a gun with an optic which is a lot of fun to do regardless of whether you have young or old eyes ...

I have so much fun shooting my open rimfire gun in SC that were it not for my stubbornness about accomplishing my goals in Production, I would have already switched to Open

I say bring it on, the sooner the better and no one's making anyone shoot that division. Don't like it, don't shoot it ...

[jabbermurph]

There is nothing wrong with trying and failing .... Failing to try is another matter ...

In my mind a Production Optic div has the best of both worlds ... You get to keep all the good things that make Production as popular as it is and you get to shoot a gun with an optic which is a lot of fun to do regardless of whether you have young or old eyes ...

I have so much fun shooting my open rimfire gun in SC that were it not for my stubbornness about accomplishing my goals in Production, I would have already switched to Open

I say bring it on, the sooner the better and no one's making anyone shoot that division. Don't like it, don't shoot it ...

I agree. I think Production Optics and Production Irons would be a huge step forward.

Production Irons---

Current Prod rules, 10 round capacity and all

Production Optics--- All current division requirements for from Production Irons, except:

1) Slide can be milled to accept electronic sights. No frame mounted electronic sights

2) Start capacity of no more than 16+1. Magazine capacity no more than 16.

Should I start a poll?

Edited February 6, 2014 by jabbermurph

[ZackJones]

I agree. I think Production Optics and Production Irons would be a huge step forward.

Production Irons---

Current Prod rules, 10 round capacity and all

Production Optics--- All current division requirements for from Production Irons, except:

1) Slide can be milled to accept electronic sights. No frame mounted electronic sights

2) Start capacity of no more than 16+1. Magazine capacity no more than 16.

Should I start a poll?

I actually like this idea better than my original one. The S&W M&P C.O.R.E. in 9mm would be perfect for production open. I'd quit shooting revolver and go back to shooting production again if this were to happen.

Edited February 6, 2014 by ZackJones

[jabbermurph]

I agree. I think Production Optics and Production Irons would be a huge step forward.

Production Irons---

Current Prod rules, 10 round capacity and all

Production Optics--- All current division requirements for from Production Irons, except:

1) Slide can be milled to accept electronic sights. No frame mounted electronic sights

2) Start capacity of no more than 16+1. Magazine capacity no more than 16.

Should I start a poll?

I actually like this idea better than my original one. The S&W M&P C.O.R.E. in 9mm would be perfect for production open. I'd quit shooting revolver and go back to shooting production again if this were to happen.

Yep....wouldn't be an equipment race. Many gunsmiths can mill slides for optics at a reasonably fair price. Can be done to any Production gun.

Edited February 6, 2014 by jabbermurph

[Chris iliff]

Start a poll

Already some great ideas.

[jabbermurph]

Start a poll

Already some great ideas.

Done!!!

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=189723&hl=

[rgkeller]

People in New York get to sleigh riding several months a year.

Those living in Texas have the opportunity only rarely.

Do you believe New Yorkers should be banned from sleigh riding unless it is snowing in Texas?

Ok, I see the point you're trying to make. However, can you address the following:

1. Why is expanding mag capacity to 15 rounds a good idea? What net benefit will it have for the sport?

Makes USPSA and IPSC the same.

Ceases setting our rules nationwide to conform to stupid local gun laws.

Gives members from gun unfriendly states the unfettered joy of loading their magazines to near capacity when they travel to major matches.

[Supermoto]

Makes USPSA and IPSC the same.

Ceases setting our rules nationwide to conform to stupid local gun laws.

Gives members from gun unfriendly states the unfettered joy of loading their magazines to near capacity when they travel to major matches.

Do we want to be the same as IPSC?

NJ has 15rnd so you are still conforming to stupid local gun rules. Why place any arbitrary limit on mag restriction?

[rgkeller]

You talked me into it.

No round restrictions.

Unless the match is in a state with stupid gun laws,

[beltjones]

You guys made some interesting points, but you didn't quantify at all how this would improve member retention or attract new members. Thus, it's kind of pointless.

"Failing to try" is bad, but just throwing a bunch of stuff at the wall without data to support it, without a strategic perspective, without a visition into the endstate of things, without a structured plan for how to get there, etc is just bad management.

[beltjones]

Production Optics could be a great idea, IF there is a plan to use the division to market the sport to new shooters, to bring back old members who left, or to keep members who might have otherwise left. Likewise, if there is a plan to market the division to "thought leaders" in the tactical crowd, to gain increased sponsorship from industry partners, and so on, then it might be worth investigating. However, you have to calculate the cost of adding a division, from the man hours required to update the rule book to the effort to sponsor a new division at matches. It's not free, and if USPSA is going to undertake it then they ought to a) come up with a new division that will provide the biggest bang for the buck; and develop a plan to get the most out of their efforts in terms of sponsorship and membership.

[ickus]

Can I shoot my open gun in IDPA

[Nik Habicht]

I agree. I think Production Optics and Production Irons would be a huge step forward.

Production Irons---

Current Prod rules, 10 round capacity and all

Production Optics--- All current division requirements for from Production Irons, except:

1) Slide can be milled to accept electronic sights. No frame mounted electronic sights

2) Start capacity of no more than 16+1. Magazine capacity no more than 16.

Should I start a poll?

I actually like this idea better than my original one. The S&W M&P C.O.R.E. in 9mm would be perfect for production open. I'd quit shooting revolver and go back to shooting production again if this were to happen.

Yep....wouldn't be an equipment race. Many gunsmiths can mill slides for optics at a reasonably fair price. Can be done to any Production gun.

It's an equipment race -- the capacity along excludes a bunch of guns that can't achieve 16+1......

[Nik Habicht]

Gives members from gun unfriendly states the unfettered joy of loading their magazines to near capacity when they travel to major matches.

How exactly will they do that, if they can't own magazines allowing for more than ten rounds in the first place? When I lived in NJ, the only mags I could legally own for my Glock 34s were ten rounders......

Kind of hard to shoot a match out of state and fill those mags up beyond ten......

[rgkeller]

I agree. I think Production Optics and Production Irons would be a huge step forward.

Production Irons---

Current Prod rules, 10 round capacity and all

Production Optics--- All current division requirements for from Production Irons, except:

1) Slide can be milled to accept electronic sights. No frame mounted electronic sights

2) Start capacity of no more than 16+1. Magazine capacity no more than 16.

Should I start a poll?

I actually like this idea better than my original one. The S&W M&P C.O.R.E. in 9mm would be perfect for production open. I'd quit shooting revolver and go back to shooting production again if this were to happen.

Yep....wouldn't be an equipment race. Many gunsmiths can mill slides for optics at a reasonably fair price. Can be done to any Production gun.

It's an equipment race -- the capacity along excludes a bunch of guns that can't achieve 16+1......

The issue is whether eliminating mag limits would exclude shooters not whether it would exclude guns.

Every Glock 9 can get to 17. CZ and Tan and SF and M&P and Beretta, no problem. I believe new shooters of these pistols woulld embrace the idea of loading their mags up to the standard designed capacities.

[rgkeller]

Gives members from gun unfriendly states the unfettered joy of loading their magazines to near capacity when they travel to major matches.

How exactly will they do that, if they can't own magazines allowing for more than ten rounds in the first place? When I lived in NJ, the only mags I could legally own for my Glock 34s were ten rounders......

Kind of hard to shoot a match out of state and fill those mags up beyond ten......

A little imagination and a friend or a hundred bucks will open up the opportunity.

[beltjones]

I agree. I think Production Optics and Production Irons would be a huge step forward.

Production Irons---

Current Prod rules, 10 round capacity and all

Production Optics--- All current division requirements for from Production Irons, except:

1) Slide can be milled to accept electronic sights. No frame mounted electronic sights

2) Start capacity of no more than 16+1. Magazine capacity no more than 16.

Should I start a poll?

I actually like this idea better than my original one. The S&W M&P C.O.R.E. in 9mm would be perfect for production open. I'd quit shooting revolver and go back to shooting production again if this were to happen.

Yep....wouldn't be an equipment race. Many gunsmiths can mill slides for optics at a reasonably fair price. Can be done to any Production gun.

It's an equipment race -- the capacity along excludes a bunch of guns that can't achieve 16+1......

The issue is whether eliminating mag limits would exclude shooters not whether it would exclude guns.

Every Glock 9 can get to 17. CZ and Tan and SF and M&P and Beretta, no problem. I believe new shooters of these pistols woulld embrace the idea of loading their mags up to the standard designed capacities.

Based on what? A hunch?

Again, once upon a time it was ok in Production to load mags to their factory capacity, and the resulting arms race is what prompted IPSC to go to a 15 round limit. So based on historical evidence, shooters don't embrace the idea of loading mags to "standard designed" capacities. To put it more simply, the evidence shows that shooters were compelled to buy new gear to get or maintain a competitive advantage, but they weren't too happy about it.

[jabbermurph]

The mag capacity isn't really the meat of this evolving idea. I think the Optic at a low cost is what sparks the most interest.

It is obvious that most folks are against mag capacity change, but would welcome the chance at an optic.

[beltjones]

Obvious based on your poll on this forum that has been up for a day or two?

And obviously if you read posts on this thread other than your own you would see that for several people the mag capacity idea is exactly the meat of it.

[Strick]

About the only thing I am getting from any of these ideas is "I don't want to shoot major in LTD with an actual LTD gun, I only want to shoot minor with my prod gun.........with lots of bullets" and "I don't want to shoot major open with a $4K gun I want to shoot minor with a cheaper gun and dot.......with lots of bullets".

There is a place for all these guns and I don't see people shooting them in the divisions available at the moment.

[Reshoot]

The mag capacity isn't really the meat of this evolving idea. I think the Optic at a low cost is what sparks the most interest.

It is obvious that most folks are against mag capacity change, but would welcome the chance at an optic.

About those low cost optics . . . are we still talking about slide mount? If that is the case, I suggest everyone start doing some serious research, before milling that slide and throwing an optic on there.

There are several manufacturers out there claiming there little holographic sights are suitable for this application. In no particular order . . . Burris, C-More, Leupold, and Trijicon to name a few. But, will they actually stand the test of time, while taking that horrific beating?

When I first built my open XDm, I chose to slide mount the Burris Fastfire II. I purchased two of them, to give me a backup. I shot this setup from August to the following July. And, during those 12 months I had one on the gun while the other was on its way back to Burris, to be replaced. Both sights were replaced a total of 3 times . . . in just 12 months. I have a stack of packing slips to verify this. Now, after the sights were replaced (with new ones) the third time, I sold them.

"Yeah, but, the brand I bought has a lifetime warranty", you might be thinking. To that I say (from experience), that warranty isn't worth squat, when that dot goes out half way through the 3rd stage of a 10 stage sectional match.

I have been told by several shooters, something like; "I just shot my second, or third, or whatever match with the so'n so sight, and it worked beautifully". That is great! Really, it is! But, PLEASE, report back to us after you have shot 6,000+ rounds, over the course of a season.

I could be wrong, as I am half the time, but I would be very surprised if any of the slide mounted optics stand the test of time.

[beltjones]

Reshoot, that's actually a good reason for USPSA to get involved in a division that supports slide-mounted optics.

I don't think any of the original optics used in Open held up that well, either. But through the "crucible of competition" shooters and manufacturers figured out ways to make things work. The same could easily happen again with slide mounted optics, and the shooting community at large would benefit from our collective efforts.

[rgkeller]

Maybe we could use major/minor and call the new Division "Modified"

[jabbermurph]

Reshoot, that's actually a good reason for USPSA to get involved in a division that supports slide-mounted optics.

I don't think any of the original optics used in Open held up that well, either. But through the "crucible of competition" shooters and manufacturers figured out ways to make things work. The same could easily happen again with slide mounted optics, and the shooting community at large would benefit from our collective efforts.

Exactly.

The meat statement was referring to what really fuels this new idea: optics. The mag capacity was referring to a "cheese," which obviously wouldn't be accepted by the lactose intolerant crowd. So consensus from some (maybe most) is Production optics-sure, if that is the only change. No capacity change. Still 10+1

[chevyoneton]

I don't see much point to the proposed new divisions. More rounds in Production (Production 15), maybe, but not really even there. Just shoot Limited and be done if that is your thing. Limited Minor PF if you have to. That is what I do sometimes to get some USPSA time with my 3-Gun pistola (for a couple of months before a big 3-Gun match). As to Production Optics, just shoot Open, that is what I plan on doing. When I get too blind to shoot irons (which looks like will be pretty soon) I will slap an optic on my XDm .40 5.25 or 4.5 and go to town. In addition to the eys growing increasingly dim I am not so fleet of foot that I will not have time to swap mags somewhere along the course so the reduced round count of .40 over 9mm/.38Super should not be too big an issue.