apetrulis01 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I was reading some articles about new guns at the shot show. Supposedly CZ is coming out with a double stack 1911 in 9mm called the Chaos (Limited not open style). Thing is the MSRP is $4300!!!!! Seriously, I can buy an STI eagle or Edge, get work done, buy mags and ammo and still come out ahead of $4300. Heck, I can get 2 STI pistols for that amount of money. Just wondering what you think of the CZ Chaos and the price tag. Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OperationHitFactor Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I think if demand for their product allows them to charge that in a still kind of, sort of, maybe... free market, good for them. It is a pretty cool gun from the photos. If it was $3000ish it would sell like hotcakes, assuming it's a production gun with custom quality, readily available. That being said, I would rather buy a custom from one of the many qualified custom builders in our community. If they get it, good for them, Wilson Combat charges more than most custom builders charge for a complete custom single stack. They sell like beanie babies in the 90's. Time will tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Adam, CZ bought Dan Wesson in 2005 and continued to produce their revolvers and high end 1911s, at some point (I'm not sure when), DW started to offer double stack 2011 type pistols, they have a few models which have been around for at least the last few years: The Dan Wesson Havoc - 5" (strangely they list it as 4.25", but don't get me started on the CZ barrel lengths...) 9mm or .38 super - MSRP $4,299 The Dan Wesson Mayhem - 6" .40 - MSRP $3,899 The Dan Wesson Chaos - 5" 9mm - MSRP $3,829 I've got roughly $20K in CZs, but I'm not interested in 1911/2011s, so they're not worth much to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OperationHitFactor Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Mmm... I do love a good Caspian framed race gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 If those are the MSRPs, what are the actual street prices ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigglemonkee Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 street price on a havoc elite is about 4800 and that is if you can find one. Saw one at a store and it was amazing, came with the big sticks too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OperationHitFactor Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 If it comes with mags then that is a not completely unreasonable price. If I'm not mistaken Caspian frames cost more than a 2011 frame, plus I believe there is some extra fitting. Maybe a Caspian guy can chime in? It's got us talking, no such thing as bad publicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4444 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 This is why, I'm moving more and more toward production, and picking up some IDPA....I understand market demands and if you have the money and the suppliers can get the prices, good for each of them, but this could be a market limiting factor. I REFUSE to pay that kind of money... I make a pretty good living, but I can't see going well over $5K into a Limited gun by the time you get mags and such. The prices of used guns have skyrocketed as well. Again, I get it, supply and demand. I have a feeling, I've already bought my last Limited gun (lightly customized 6 inch Eagle) and I'll never get a chance to get back into open....you gotta pay if you want to play, however, there are a hell of a lot of other things I want to play and if I drop all my money on equipment, then I don't get to play this game nor any other. So, I will officially be driven out of Limited someday,,,,if anytyhing ever happens to that gun and I can affordably/safely repair it, I may be "out". So, it is more Production, SS (with factory guns), SSP, and ESP.... Byron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigglemonkee Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 most of the dan wessons include 2-3 mags. the elite usually comes with 2 140s and 1 170 so those are there. also they usually give some extras but it is a lot compared to buying a custom. if i had millions I would have one, but as i don't I will stay with my CZ and my pm7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twister Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) My local gun store had a Havoc and a Mayhem. Both guns were very nice, they discounted both to get rid of them. With custom single stacks getting upwards of $4000 to $5000, I don't think they are too out of line. Edited January 17, 2014 by twister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Havoc? Mayhem? Chaos? Cute names. :roflol: Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Havoc, Mayhem and Chaos on my pocketbook... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 If it comes with mags then that is a not completely unreasonable price. If I'm not mistaken Caspian frames cost more than a 2011 frame, plus I believe there is some extra fitting. Maybe a Caspian guy can chime in? It's got us talking, no such thing as bad publicity. Yep, those are Caspian hi-cap frames. As far as cost for the raw frame, a Caspian is probably a little cheaper than a plastic gripped modular gun with the same part set but not by much. The Caspian comes with a grip (it's a one piece frame like a 1911, so of course it has a grip!), trigger, safety, mainspring housing, and grip safety. Figure out what a modular gun goes for with those same parts and you get the basic cost difference. Brownells has both STI and Caspian frames if you want to comparison shop. Like every platform (tanfo, caspian, modular, glock, para, etc.), there are some nuances to the build but it ain't no biggie for a skilled pistol smith. Probably more comparable to building a traditional 1911. The end price of a custom Caspian build will be similar to that for a custom modular gun build. I'd say the most challenging part about the Caspian platform for most are the mags. Once you get the tuning for the Caspian mags figured out it is pretty easy, but it can be frustrating until you get over that hump. It helps to be handy and able to do your own tuning. Caspian is now selling 28 (maybe 29) round 170mm round mags based on their new style mags that work well once they are tuned, and Jim Anglin does a nice 29 round 170mm based on the old style Caspian mags with a dawson base pad and gram spring/follower. The street price for Caspian mags is pretty reasonable and is somewhere between 60-70 bones for a 140mm mag with a nice quick change base pad, plus 17 bucks for a Grams spring/follower will get a 23 round mag. For a Caspian 170mm it is 125 bones and it comes with a grams spring/follower. A Jim Anglin built mag runs about 135ish on your mags. It would be interesting to know what CZ/Dan Wesson is using for their 140mm and 170mm mags. Here is an example of a recent Caspian open gun built by the local Gunocologist. Been using it for the past year or so and enjoy shooting it. Weighs in at about 48-49 oz. and the balance point is around the trigger face so it has a neutral feel to it when pointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmine Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Still waiting for my SVI...tic tok tic tok 1 Gun and 6 mags ( don't forget I'm in Canada) $6K+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Havoc, Mayhem and Chaos on my pocketbook... Not if you don't let it. There are other very good alternatives available. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4444 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) Havoc, Mayhem and Chaos on my pocketbook... Not if you don't let it. There are other very good alternatives available. Pat Exactly,,,,,I'm done with the equipment race (Limited and Open). I'll just be happy to shoot more/invest in lead. I have my last Limited gun......it'll do. Edited January 17, 2014 by h4444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Havoc, Mayhem and Chaos on my pocketbook... Not if you don't let it. There are other very good alternatives available. Pat Yes, you are correct Sir. My comment was a failed attempt at humor. But truly, I just can't see spending that kind of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviesterno Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 if you don't want to spend that much money, you don't have to. I've owned/shot some CZ owned Dan Wesson 1911s and a valor is about the only gun i regret selling. it was fit and finished at least as nice as an Ed Brown, if not better. They make nice stuff, but like anything, you gotta pay if you want fancy. I would imagine a good shooter with practice could do darn near as well with a 2011/CZ/ or tuned M&P/Glock. But i LIKE the fancy stuff, so I pay for it. Same reason I could be driving a 2001 Kia. But I don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4444 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 if you don't want to spend that much money, you don't have to. I've owned/shot some CZ owned Dan Wesson 1911s and a valor is about the only gun i regret selling. it was fit and finished at least as nice as an Ed Brown, if not better. They make nice stuff, but like anything, you gotta pay if you want fancy. I would imagine a good shooter with practice could do darn near as well with a 2011/CZ/ or tuned M&P/Glock. But i LIKE the fancy stuff, so I pay for it. Same reason I could be driving a 2001 Kia. But I don't Ding Ding Ding on that practice point. Me and my ratty looking 6 inch Eagle beat guys classed higher than me shooting full customs pretty often. But, I find myself being drawn more toward Production these days so I can shoot a little more affordably on the ammo side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Don't forget the 10mm Titan. I'm not sure if they're still offering those, but they sold quite a few of them from what I understand. The guy building these does really nice work, and makes a very accurate gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbertarget Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) if you don't want to spend that much money, you don't have to. I've owned/shot some CZ owned Dan Wesson 1911s and a valor is about the only gun i regret selling. it was fit and finished at least as nice as an Ed Brown, if not better. They make nice stuff, but like anything, you gotta pay if you want fancy. I would imagine a good shooter with practice could do darn near as well with a 2011/CZ/ or tuned M&P/Glock. But i LIKE the fancy stuff, so I pay for it. Same reason I could be driving a 2001 Kia. But I don't What car do you drive an AMG renntech or M-class;)??There are pretentious GAMERS just like there are hifalutin pistol owners/car buyers. Why buy a regular 3-series when you can buy an M3 right?. Buying for quality,reliability,fit&finish is acceptable but to be paying OPEN CLASS prices for a limited pistol is absurd. If the frame was made from UNOBTAINIUM and has 24kt gold sights you still couldnt justify it since resale value would be for a very limited market and that market with disposable income wouldnt be inclined to be purchasing a USED GAMER pistol...just I.M.O. Edited January 21, 2014 by Kimbertarget Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I can appreciate a shooter who makes GM with a $500 Glock, but I don't think it's very tasteful to cast aspersions on those shooters who choose to spend more money, regardless of their motivation. That's the thing about money: you never really can tell by looking at a guy if he's behind on his rent, or is a millionaire. Besides the point, the initial price of the firearm is a relatively small amount when compared to the cost of reloading components, match fees, and travel expenses over the life of that pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviesterno Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 @Kimbertarget, I just bought myself a new to me 2007 FJ. For cheap, but it's a good value. For the last year I would drive to 3 gun matches with almost $7k in the back of a $2k car. I worked my ass off, scrapped, and built up as I went. It would be nice to be a trust fund baby, but believe me I'm not. It's fine if you want to call me a pretentious gamer, but I think you should probably know this forum is not for yelling and name calling and bashing and all this crap. it's for competitive shooters to talk about competitive shooting. there's a metric S-ton of forums to go say why one brand rocks and another blows. Or why your car, watch, COLT, whiskey, religion, family, state, wife, whatever is better than mine. The fact that DW makes this pistol and charges X for it is a demonstration that capitalism works! If you don't like it, don't buy it. If it's worth the money (to you) you totally can. Limited and 3 gun can be and is won by people that run whatever gear they have the best. If they make it a priority to get the best glass they can afford, they do. Simple as that. And companies exist that will cater to what people will buy. It's why you can drive a Kia or Bentley, or anything in between. As far as the shooting world goes, you can run a long slide block pretty damn well if you know what you're doing and practice. A switch to a custom or DW or whatever will not make you a better shooter. Might make it more fun, but practice and drive are what make people win. I'm just doing this to have fun. and I have more fun with a 6" 2011 than with a block. I don't know why, but that's not a question for anyone to answer but me. I've owned a pile of 1911s: Springfield, RIA, STI, DW, a COLT I had forgotten about, some off brands, a few kimbers, and a Baer, I'm sure more I'm forgetting. But I have kept and will keep the Baer. I'll compete with it, I'll keep it for HD, and it will be my favorite range gun because I simply like it best. Fits me as the shooter, me the consumer. I'll plunk my money out for another one when the time comes (hopefully soon!) because it fits best what I want to get out of shooting. And that's what this is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cecil Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 whats the old saying... ? .... a fool and his money is soon parted ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 whats the old saying... ? .... a fool and his money is soon parted ? I think it is "A fool and his money throw great parties." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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