Sandbagger123 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 one thing that i have found is the courtesy of yelling " cover" not used consistantly. Some So's do it all the time. some never. I actually prefer the latter as i consider it the shooters responsibilty to make sure they are behind cover. So do you do a courtesy cover notice? do you as a shooter prefer it, or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 seems to me as an SO are expected to call cover. They call it a courtesy call because if they didn't and the SO didn't call it then you could get a reshoot. Not calling cover is a BS move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 It's definitely the shooter's responsibility to be behind cover. Getting or not getting the "cover" notification from the SO makes no difference as far as earning a PE. Many shooters move too fast for the SO to be able to holler out before the shooter has moved on. It's still a penalty if it occurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FF423 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 I would say at a local club calling cover helps new shooters understand the rules of cover bigger matches shouldn't be called because it could be considered interference of the SO my $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
45 Raven Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Consistency is what matters. I agree that courtesy calls for cover at local matches are helpful in helping improve shooter's use of cover and prepare them for sanctioned/bigger matches. However, if there is no consistency, it does more harm than good. I don't know how often I've seen a particular R/O call "cover" on a shooter, and if the shooter immediately makes a cover adjustment, there is no penalty assessed. Then the next shooter (same R/O) will receive a "cover" call and even if the shooter immediately makes a correction, he or she will be assessed a penalty because they broke a shot before "cover" was called (exactly as had been done on the previous shooter who was NOT assessed a penalty!) It's not easy being an R/O, but everyone who accepts the responsibility should work hard to establish a baseline of consistency! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmason Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 If a cover call has been made and you make the adjustment before breaking the shot there is no procedural. If you have broken the shot you have already earned the procedural penalty, it is already to late to call cover at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke8401 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 If a cover call has been made and you make the adjustment before breaking the shot there is no procedural. If you have broken the shot you have already earned the procedural penalty, it is already to late to call cover at that point. I haven't kept up with the new rule book, can you point out the paragraph that states this? Thanks, David E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 3.6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted December 30, 2013 Author Share Posted December 30, 2013 If a cover call has been made and you make the adjustment before breaking the shot there is no procedural. If you have broken the shot you have already earned the procedural penalty, it is already to late to call cover at that point. Correct. But tis a courtesy, and not a requirement to give such a warning.Its up to the SO if he wishes to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 If a cover call has been made and you make the adjustment before breaking the shot there is no procedural. If you have broken the shot you have already earned the procedural penalty, it is already to late to call cover at that point. Correct. But tis a courtesy, and not a requirement to give such a warning.Its up to the SO if he wishes to do so. What curtesy is there? If I've already earned the procedural then there is no reason to say anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willfully armed Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 I have always given a courtesy call before throwing a finger. Ive only met one SO who didn't, and he wasn't a very agreeable fellow anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 If a cover call has been made and you make the adjustment before breaking the shot there is no procedural. If you have broken the shot you have already earned the procedural penalty, it is already to late to call cover at that point. Correct. But tis a courtesy, and not a requirement to give such a warning.Its up to the SO if he wishes to do so. and here is one of the many reasons I am drifting away from IDPA... It is an offical range command so why would it be a courtesy? 2.12.8 says "This command is given when a shooter is not properly using cover " doesn't say if you feel like it... you grab onto the one place in the rule book where it says it is a "courtsey and think you don't have to call it ever if you don't want to... The whole point is why call it once the shot is broken... The courtesy part comes into play because if they didn't word it that way and you broke cover and fired a shot you could argue "you never called it" well since you can only get one PE per point of cover once you get the PE why not just step out and blast away? Same with tac seq if you throw 2 on the first target then why not just shoot them all twice and be done with it... The new rule book still sucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryShoots Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Before I drop my opinion into this discussion I want to answer the original question. I try to give the cover call when I'm scoring and can see it in time to warn the shooter. When I'm holding the timer I watch the gun and only the gun and let my scorekeeper partner worry about cover calls and other PE's that I won't see if I am watching the gun. In other words I do only: - The load and start commands - MUZZLE - FINGER - STOP - The Unload and range safe commands My partner does only - Cover - MUZZLE - STOP - He also looks for procedurals like shooting out of sequence, use of cover, illegal reloads, Course of Fire After the Range is safe we worry about targets, FTN and non threats That being said... They are trying at IDPA so hard to keep it as close to defensive shooting as possible. It's a tall order because most stages aren't even close to realistic. It still serves a great purpose for the average shooter and they really do get better "real world" practice then say shooting at a static target over and over again. I look at it like this... If you are looking at it as a game then the rules work well if consistently enforced. I don't complain when a call doesn't go my way unless one of two circumstances exist: 1. The call is clearly not correct (doesn't follow the rulebook) In which case I say so politely and if needed I offer to get the rulebook out and show the rule that supports my protest. 2. The call is not consistent with the manner that the other shooters in my squad have received by the same SO. In which case I ask for a short private word with the SO and explain my standpoint and ask him/her to take that into consideration before I sign the scoresheet. If you are trying to use IDPA as a tool to improve your skills for self defense then you really shouldn't care about the penalties and just shoot the stage based on how you would do so If you were defending yourself. Then when you get your scores ignore the penalties and only consider the raw time and accuracy. Honestly if we were really looking at a stage with the question of "How do I defend myself in this scenario within the law?" then in many stages you wouldn't draw and fire a single shot since many of the scenarios would probably get you sent to prison in the real world if you followed the course of fire. The problem is it still has to be fun and shooting stage after stage of two targets at 4 yards or less get's real old real fast. Not to mention if it was truly realistic we would see stages with one or two or three baddies and an absolute sea of non threats like 10 or 20. It's a good topic sandbagger thanks for posting it and thank you in advance for letting me chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I warn if possible. Not always possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Some of these guys are pretty quick. They can plant a foot well past the barrier and break a shot before I can get my mouth open. One thread concluded that you should not then call Cover! so as not to startle them and put confusion on top of the PE. No matter, I don't RO or SO major matches any more; I have just been cheated, cursed, and lied to and about too much. At the club level, I do my best and that is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock3422 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) I have worked Nationals and Indoor Nationals, as well as more local and sanctioned matches than I care to recall. I have never given a cover warning and don't want a cover warning. We all know what cover is supposed to be and while the shooter is on the clock it is their responsibility to use it. Over the years I have seen proactive SOs issue cover warnings when there was no warning called for. The shooter, in their attempt to find that magic place, wastes about 1 1/2 seconds resetting, and firing a bad shot. SOs should be seen and not heard. We can talk about it after unload and show clear. The worst was a guy who gave me the warning, I moved and I got the procedural any way. Just shut up and give it to me if you think I'm wrong. I have given my share of cover procedurals and been yelled at by "one of the best," (**) for doing it. He was still wrong and everyone there knew it. That was when I decided I wasn't being paid enough. I haven't worked another sanctioned match since and will not ever again. Thanks Dave. Edited January 2, 2014 by sperman Shooter's initial removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Before I drop my opinion into this discussion I want to answer the original question. I try to give the cover call when I'm scoring and can see it in time to warn the shooter. When I'm holding the timer I watch the gun and only the gun and let my scorekeeper partner worry about cover calls and other PE's that I won't see if I am watching the gun. In other words I do only: - The load and start commands - MUZZLE - FINGER - STOP - The Unload and range safe commands My partner does only - Cover - MUZZLE - STOP - He also looks for procedurals like shooting out of sequence, use of cover, illegal reloads, Course of Fire After the Range is safe we worry about targets, FTN and non threats That being said... They are trying at IDPA so hard to keep it as close to defensive shooting as possible. It's a tall order because most stages aren't even close to realistic. It still serves a great purpose for the average shooter and they really do get better "real world" practice then say shooting at a static target over and over again. I look at it like this... If you are looking at it as a game then the rules work well if consistently enforced. I don't complain when a call doesn't go my way unless one of two circumstances exist: 1. The call is clearly not correct (doesn't follow the rulebook) In which case I say so politely and if needed I offer to get the rulebook out and show the rule that supports my protest. 2. The call is not consistent with the manner that the other shooters in my squad have received by the same SO. In which case I ask for a short private word with the SO and explain my standpoint and ask him/her to take that into consideration before I sign the scoresheet. If you are trying to use IDPA as a tool to improve your skills for self defense then you really shouldn't care about the penalties and just shoot the stage based on how you would do so If you were defending yourself. Then when you get your scores ignore the penalties and only consider the raw time and accuracy. Honestly if we were really looking at a stage with the question of "How do I defend myself in this scenario within the law?" then in many stages you wouldn't draw and fire a single shot since many of the scenarios would probably get you sent to prison in the real world if you followed the course of fire. The problem is it still has to be fun and shooting stage after stage of two targets at 4 yards or less get's real old real fast. Not to mention if it was truly realistic we would see stages with one or two or three baddies and an absolute sea of non threats like 10 or 20. It's a good topic sandbagger thanks for posting it and thank you in advance for letting me chime in. If IDPA was promoted as a self defense training event not a competition then I would agree with most of your post, but it is not it is a competition so I think about each stage from the point of view of what will get me the highest score. that said I like the cover call courtesy at the local level, I think it helps the majority of the shooters that are newer to the game figure out what they are really doing vs what they thought they were going to do. at a higher level event I don't really think it would matter if I'm fast enough I will have already got the PE and will keep shooting if I'm going slow I my save a second by resetting. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 it would be sooo easy if there were fault line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughingdog Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 If a cover call has been made and you make the adjustment before breaking the shot there is no procedural. If you have broken the shot you have already earned the procedural penalty, it is already to late to call cover at that point. Correct. But tis a courtesy, and not a requirement to give such a warning.Its up to the SO if he wishes to do so. and here is one of the many reasons I am drifting away from IDPA... It is an offical range command so why would it be a courtesy? 2.12.8 says "This command is given when a shooter is not properly using cover " doesn't say if you feel like it... you grab onto the one place in the rule book where it says it is a "courtsey and think you don't have to call it ever if you don't want to... The whole point is why call it once the shot is broken... The courtesy part comes into play because if they didn't word it that way and you broke cover and fired a shot you could argue "you never called it" well since you can only get one PE per point of cover once you get the PE why not just step out and blast away? Same with tac seq if you throw 2 on the first target then why not just shoot them all twice and be done with it... The new rule book still sucks! You left off the important part of 2.12.8. The part that says to refer to 3.6 for specifics. 3.6 is very clear. If they've already fired a shot, you don't call cover. Otherwise, you're supposed to call it. If you're experienced enough to be so fast that the SO doesn't have time to call it, you're experienced enough to know how to not break cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmason Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 I agree with Steve, when possible I will give a courtesy cover call. Once you fire the shot, if cover were to be called it would just cost you addition time. More than likely, it would cause you to repositioning yourself. No need to cost a shooter additional time. I personally prefer not to be given cover calls. I am normally in shooting mode and it is a distraction. If I earn it, give it to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 If a cover call has been made and you make the adjustment before breaking the shot there is no procedural. If you have broken the shot you have already earned the procedural penalty, it is already to late to call cover at that point. Correct. But tis a courtesy, and not a requirement to give such a warning.Its up to the SO if he wishes to do so. and here is one of the many reasons I am drifting away from IDPA... It is an offical range command so why would it be a courtesy? 2.12.8 says "This command is given when a shooter is not properly using cover " doesn't say if you feel like it... you grab onto the one place in the rule book where it says it is a "courtsey and think you don't have to call it ever if you don't want to... The whole point is why call it once the shot is broken... The courtesy part comes into play because if they didn't word it that way and you broke cover and fired a shot you could argue "you never called it" well since you can only get one PE per point of cover once you get the PE why not just step out and blast away? Same with tac seq if you throw 2 on the first target then why not just shoot them all twice and be done with it... The new rule book still sucks! You left off the important part of 2.12.8. The part that says to refer to 3.6 for specifics. 3.6 is very clear. If they've already fired a shot, you don't call cover. Otherwise, you're supposed to call it. If you're experienced enough to be so fast that the SO doesn't have time to call it, you're experienced enough to know how to not break cover. You also left out an important part.... that part that says Refer to rule 3.6 for specifics of using cover... not calling cover. The rules are clear if you are in a position of cover and have not fired a shot you should get a cover warning. If you already broke the shot then no cover warning. If you are quick you will probably never get a cover call, just a PE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig N Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 it would be sooo easy if there were fault line There is....it's just imaginary and moves as you address the next target. I don't think I have ever heard a cover call. Earned a few PE's for cover but that was for blowing by targets I completely forgot about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 If I can give the call I will, if its a situation where the shooter fires too fast for the call or the oppurtunity to get behind cover, no call, just the PE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KY1911 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I always give a courtesy cover call...the first time. If it's a new shooter, I'll help them and be lenient. If it's an experienced shooter, you get the one and then it's 3 seconds at a time for the rest of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 If you just stop breaking cover, it all becomes a non issue and you don't have to worry about luck of the draw on s.o. actions effecting your score. In almost any sport there are some judgement calls and there is some luck associated with where the official is looking/standing when you break a rule. Learn to stay behind cover, until then accept either warnings or penalties as training aids, don't worry be happy. In my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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