Race me to "x"

[pjb45]

I noticed there are a lot of 'Race me to..' threads.

When I started USPSA I was fairly quick at getting my C card. B followed.

I have hung out with B cards forever.

I had a long dialog with Mike Seeklander, his books are available on Amazon. He essentially made the point, I trained myself to fail. By not training correctly (Hero to Zero stages) I was only re-enforcing bad habits.

Two things which improved when I stopped the Hero to Zero mentality my scores improved. Training correct techniques rather than go of broke speed resulted in the greatest improvement.

Finally, our classification system is just that, too often we read too much into it. I was told I was I was on of the few people whose Classifications were actually pretty close to my match scores.

So the question is really, Do I want to be a paper B (or A, etc) or do I want to shoot matches to the level of my ability. Answer: Shoot matches better-train correctly.

[Chris iliff]

I agree with you a ton. I've wondered about the race threads myself and whether or not they are a healthy thing. For myself, I never got involved in those threads. I can say I've changed my thinking on some things over the years, especially classifiers and stand and shoot types of skills. For years I avoided any type of practice along these lines. Now, I see that as wrong. I see stages as sections of classifiers that you must move between. A shooter better know how to stand and deliver if they want to develop much past B. Of course, this is just my humble opinion.

And of course, there are many ways to get there.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Chris iliff

[kcobean]

I once watched a couple of young guys go up into a bay after a match, shoot a classifer 5 or 10 times until they got the hit-factor they liked, then brought it to the range master for score. I really wanted to tell those two fellas that they're completely missing the point.

I've only shot a handful of classifier matches in my 3 or 4 years of USPSA. Most of my classifiers are from matches where one was set up in a 6 or 8 stage match. As a "B" shooter in the mid-60% range, I think my actual field performance is right on par with where I'm classified, so I'm proud of my score, not secretly ashamed that it's a bunch of BS I can't back up. We all like to compare our relative skill to the pack, so classifications are important, but they don't mean anything if people game the system.

This little blurb is from the USPSA FAQ page, and I think it says it perfectly:

"It is understood that anyone can do poorly on a classifier stage for various reasons, and this is why the USPSA board of directors has allowed members to reshoot a classifier stage for classification purposes. This permission should not be construed to mean that members can shoot classifier stages repeatedly until they have a score they like. The integrity of the classification system is at stake.

What the system was really designed and meant to show is how well a member can perform on a regular basis so that they can compete against shooters of their own relative skill level. It adds to the fun and excitement of practical shooting, the greatest shooting sport going!"

[motosapiens]

Is there anything to suggest that the people 'racing to X class' are reshooting classifiers repeatedly? From just browsing those threads, it seems like most folks are working on variety of fundamental skills and then testing them in matches. The classification system seems to me like it provides decent motivation for some folks to practice and improve and these threads seem like a way to share what they are learning. good for them.

[ZackJones]

IMO the race to X class threads are a good thing. I'm in the race to C class. I see it as a way to motivate other shooters of similar skill level to become better shooters. Even though it's called race to x I don't really consider it a race. I'm going to make C class when I shoot well enough. I don't feel any added pressure or motivation to shoot a classifier better just because I'm in a race to make C class.

[pjb45]

The race to '.........' is putting emphasis on the wrong aspects of training. D/C and beginning B place rewards on shooting fast or moving fast and not accuracy.

Movement from Solid B to higher classification is no so much dependent on as speed but accuracy.

The Master-GM improvement comes from shooting efficiency. I once heard TGO ask someone, 'why are you taking these four extra steps? You only need to come to here and shooting your targets.

The most effective program for improvement does not come from shooting classifiers as fast as you can.

The biggest improvements in people seems to be coming from 'programs' like Mike Seeklander DVDs.

[trgt]

Is there anything to suggest that the people 'racing to X class' are reshooting classifiers repeatedly? From just browsing those threads, it seems like most folks are working on variety of fundamental skills and then testing them in matches. The classification system seems to me like it provides decent motivation for some folks to practice and improve and these threads seem like a way to share what they are learning. good for them.

+1

Also, I have a limited data, but at ten matches at four different clubs this last year I never saw classifier reshoots. In fact, one venue that had a special classifier day and allowed folks to take a second pass with another class (second registration), they specifically forbid folks from doing the same class again.

[Therealkoop]

The biggest improvements in people seems to be coming from 'programs' like Mike Seeklander DVDs.

What do these entail? I typically just shoot drills for practice as im more interested in 3 gun. Im assuming zero or hero refers to purposely blowing a classifier when you know its a bad run.

[JaeOne3345]

If you have to race to C class, you are simply not practicing at all. Sounds harsh, but it is totally true. I never understood the "shoot for a C mentality." You should be shooting for the top, and if you so happen to fall at a, b, c, or whatever, then so be it. But aiming for the C? I dunno about all that. If you aim towards better long term goals, you will meet all of those other lower levels along the way.

Ben's newest book has a great reality check section for shooters with the "settle for X" mindset.

Edited December 28, 2013 by JaeOne3345

[Nimitz]

Mike Seeklander's 'program' is exactly that .... A complete program, not just some suggestions for cool drills to try at the range. It is a 299 pg book that includes everything, dry fire program, live fire program, mental training (this section is worth the entire cost of the book by itself), physical fitness, vision training, match prep and on and on. It gives you which drills to shot on which days in a systematic setup that is in 3 phases. The DVDs are just showing you how the drills are to be shot correctly but are absolutely essential if you can't take a class from Mike in person.

If you are actually serious about getting better the book s the best $29 you'll ever spend ....

BTW, I love the "race to" threads as I use it as part of my motivation to keep training hard ...

Edited December 28, 2013 by Nimitz

[RammerJammer]

Ever heard of short term goals? I have yet to see a race to terminal C class. I imagine most of the people in those threads would one day like to dominate the world like you but they have short term goals which Seeklander encourages in his program. If they would like to hit B class by x date then throwing it out there for peers and the judgmental can only help. And, even if there was a race to B class to stay there till death so what? Not everyone will win Nationals year in and year out.

[Whoops!]

I win!

[GunBandit]

I joined the race to C class for fun and to have a little friendly competition with other benos members. As a noob I realize I need to work on draw, reload, grip, target acquisition, movement, etc. to improve my overall game. I am not in it just for the classifiers though. I want to do my best on everything and move up as I can in classfication. I think the "race to x" threads provide a good motivation to buy the books, watch the DVDs and even take some live training.

[motosapiens]

If you have to race to C class, you are simply not practicing at all. Sounds harsh, but it is totally true. I never understood the "shoot for a C mentality." You should be shooting for the top, and if you so happen to fall at a, b, c, or whatever, then so be it. But aiming for the C? I dunno about all that. If you aim towards better long term goals, you will meet all of those other lower levels along the way.

Ben's newest book has a great reality check section for shooters with the "settle for X" mindset.

I'm pretty sure it's not 'race to C class and then stop training or improving forever'. Seems like most folks just move into the race for the next class after they succeed at one short-term goal, and continue to try to improve.

Edited January 2, 2014 by motosapiens

[WidowsSon683]

2 of my first 3 classifiers were trash. They were also part of the first match i ever shot in USPSA. Since then i recently made D class thanks to the classifier at the Gator. Now im just on solid classifier away from going to C class. And yes im part of the "race to x class" threads, because i like the competition. It makes ME strive to become better to keep trucking towards my goal of Master class. Saying the people who jump classes quickly arent good shooters, which lets face it thats what you are saying youre just sugar coating it, is an insult of the highest level.

[redial]

I raised the "reshooting until you like your score" issue in a different thread, so it likely won't appear in the "Race to .." columns. Gimme a minute and I'll find it.

Mark

[redial]

This one:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=186386

[eric nielsen]

Race me to 41% - really?

[JaeOne3345]

If you have to race to C class, you are simply not practicing at all.

Race me to 41% - really?

Exactly!

[motosapiens]

If you have to race to C class, you are simply not practicing at all.

Or perhaps you are a newer shooter and you only get to shoot 1 or 2 classifiers a month. I guess I just don't feel much need to look down on people that are engaged in the sport and interested in improving. It's more fun to look down on snarky judgemental people.

[eric nielsen]

If no one's told you yet, you have to look after your classifiers that count versus those that the system says are "too high" - this can get you stuck in B if you shoot 90.01% scores that don't count because they are more than 15% above the top of your class; meanwhile scores of 55.01% do count - those are the ones that really kill your average, especially as your top scores drop off for being "too old". After my initial "B" card in Open, I wrote on all my classifier sheets (stone age tech) the phrase "Dear USPSA - please count any score more than 15% above the top of my class, as these represent my present ability - thanks." This (and training) helped me get to A class in a few months.

Nowadays there are no paper sheets mailed to USPSA so you have to check your scores and send an email to the classifier administrator when a "too high" score happens. Once you're in A class it doesn't matter, a 100% counts (but it still took me more than 2 years to make Master, that's when the "training" part really matters - a lot).

It's even worse if you get penned into C class. Bottom score that counts is 35.01%, top score that counts is 74.99%. You shoot a bunch of solid-A scores like 80% and they don't even count; your gun chokes or you toss a mag change right into the dirt and get a 36% - guess what, that counts. C is the hardest class to get out of for this reason, unless you do some tracking & use some strategy. HTH

Edited March 3, 2014 by eric nielsen

[JaeOne3345]

If you have to race to C class, you are simply not practicing at all.

Or perhaps you are a newer shooter and you only get to shoot 1 or 2 classifiers a month. I guess I just don't feel much need to look down on people that are engaged in the sport and interested in improving. It's more fun to look down on snarky judgemental people.

You can look at either way you want. Whatever floats your boat. Obviously there are the outliers in every data set. But I am saying, if you DO shoot regularly, and take the sport somewhat seriously to the point you work on skills, you will not be a C shooter for long, unless you are totally practicing wrong, or not at all.

How is that looking down on anyone? If you do not shoot for anything other than just to get out of the house, that is great! So be it. But if you are using the classification system as a means of judging performance, you do care about your game some what. Why sugar coat it? If someone is offended by a non sugar coated message that is actual TRUTH, that is their problem. This is a sport predominately made of grown men. This isn't little league baseball.

I prefer to be told, "That draw sucks, but here is how to fix it,' vs. someone lying to me telling me, "That draw is pretty good, but here is how to fix/improve it." If it sucks, it sucks. Use the fact that it sucks as positive message. It is telling you where you need to improve.

Points of failure are opportunities for improvement. How's that for snarky? Wahhhhhh. lol.

Edited March 3, 2014 by JaeOne3345

[motosapiens]

If you have to race to C class, you are simply not practicing at all.

Or perhaps you are a newer shooter and you only get to shoot 1 or 2 classifiers a month. I guess I just don't feel much need to look down on people that are engaged in the sport and interested in improving. It's more fun to look down on snarky judgemental people.

You can look at either way you want. Whatever floats your boat. Obviously there are the outliers in every data set. But I am saying, if you DO shoot regularly, and take the sport somewhat seriously to the point you work on skills, you will not be a C shooter for long, unless you are totally practicing wrong, or not at all.

I totally agree with that, but that's not at all what you posted before.

'not for long' might still be a few months or a year or a bit longer depending on how often you can shoot a match with a classifier, what level you're starting from, etc..... If during that time, people get more enjoyment, motivation and reward from participating in a 'Race me to X' thread, then good for them.

Even going from first time shooter to C can take enough time for a new shooter that there's no reason to bust on people who want to race there with others.

[JaeOne3345]

Interpret it however you like. Your definition of "busting on people" is different from mine. Simple as that, and I respect that.

Edited March 3, 2014 by JaeOne3345

[motosapiens]

Interpret it however you like. Your definition of "busting on people" is different from mine. Simple as that, and I respect that.

I didn't interpret anything, I read exactly what you posted earlier. Apparently you have now backpedaled a bit, and your post at 11:59 did not sound like you were busting on anyone.