Shooting extra classifiers

[motosapiens]

My comment was concerning paper GM's. Or any paper class.

If you need GM or any thing behind yer name so bad that you would shoot stages over and over...you were not hugged enough or weaned too early.

There are those that earned where they are...and be it D or GM...I respect them.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't see how you saying that is any different than someone else saying that if you need a self-esteem trophy so bad that you would pay attention to your 'class' result, then you were not hugged enough, or perhaps have just never been successful at anything.

Can you see how either one of those statements might be taken personally by someone, or might make someone lose their cool?

[2MoreChains]

My comment was concerning paper GM's. Or any paper class.

If you need GM or any thing behind yer name so bad that you would shoot stages over and over...you were not hugged enough or weaned too early.

There are those that earned where they are...and be it D or GM...I respect them.

Or deserving... I think what Moto is getting at is you "deserve" to be in the lower classes for a long time if you don't practice and work on improving your skills.

[Sarge]

See whitedog? This is why I have support class shooter in my sig. If you are not one of the top finishers you are a nobody. Pisses me off when people mock those of us who are not M or GM. I forget now, what percentage if us are GM's?

[motosapiens]

My comment was concerning paper GM's. Or any paper class.

If you need GM or any thing behind yer name so bad that you would shoot stages over and over...you were not hugged enough or weaned too early.

There are those that earned where they are...and be it D or GM...I respect them.

Or deserving... I think what Moto is getting at is you "deserve" to be in the lower classes for a long time if you don't practice and work on improving your skills.

I just don't really care that much what other people do, although I enjoy discussing it sometimes when I'm stuck on a conference call. For me, personally, i track my improvement by looking at overall results, and my goal is to improve my percentage in matches, and also improve my classification percentage.

I think people deserve to have fun when they shoot, and they can look at the results in whatever way makes them feel better and motivates them to practice, and show up to matches and have fun. I think making fun of paper GM's or 'grandbaggers' is justified if those people brag about being a GM even tho they're match results aren't great. I think making fun of sandbaggers is totally justified if those people brag about a class result. I think making fun of people who do none of those things is justified if it's entertaining and they don't mind too much.

[motosapiens]

See whitedog? This is why I have support class shooter in my sig. If you are not one of the top finishers you are a nobody. Pisses me off when people mock those of us who are not M or GM. I forget now, what percentage if us are GM's?

I think everyone is somebody, even support class shooters like you and me. I don't mock anyone for not being a M or better. I mock people for bragging about class 'wins' however, and I will continue to do so. OTOH, if you tell me you improved your match percentage at a major from 55% to 65%, I will congratulate you on your hard work and results.

Edited December 10, 2013 by motosapiens

[Thomas H]

I mock people for bragging about class 'wins' however, and I will continue to do so.

So what you are saying is that your values are more important than other people's values, and your right to get upset about comments about being "violated in a class you can't shoot" is more valid that other people's right to get upset about comments like "people who don't practice enough" and "making up for a possible lack of hugs as a child (and resultant lack of self-esteem)"?

I see.

I happen to disagree, both with your attitude about class, but more importantly, about your opinion about other people's values and rights. For example, I have a number of friends who don't like the classification system at all, and oddly enough, I feel no need to denigrate them.

I personally find that there are a lot of people who (for various reasons) will never make it out of C class, and that their enjoyment of the sport, and their interest in competing against people of like skill levels is perfectly reasonable and valid. Plus, I don't recall anyone ever saying that being interested in class wins means you can't ALSO be interested in how your overall score in major matches improves over time. Arguing that it is one OR the other is a false dichotomy.

I personally think the class system is useful for a number of reasons, many of which have to do precisely with the many, many people who are in the C-B range.

If, however, you see no value in the concept that people can take a look at how they do on specific sets of shooting skills compared to a national standard and everyone around them, then ok. Opinions vary.

You might, however, check your attitude prior to posting on the forum.

[motosapiens]

I mock people for bragging about class 'wins' however, and I will continue to do so.

So what you are saying is that your values are more important than other people's values, and your right to get upset about comments about being "violated in a class you can't shoot" is more valid that other people's right to get upset about comments like "people who don't practice enough" and "making up for a possible lack of hugs as a child (and resultant lack of self-esteem)"?

No, that's not what I said at all. You have completely misunderstood. Sorry about that.

[whitedog]

For the record....my "percentage" is 51.something. And you know what? I'm proud of that. I may never take my class. I may never make B. If me making my personal goal means I have low goals, or I don't practice enough, or what ever....well I guess I'll take my lowly C and have a beer with my friends. Some of us were hugged enough...and hell, I ain't been weened yet. ?

[gose]

Respectfully Nik, their score demonstrates their ability. There are no other accurate measures of a shooter's ability.

How someone performs when they come to the match IS their appropriate classification, not what they think they can do because they did it once in practice or on the ninth reshoot of a stage.

Just my dickish opinion ;-)

Mark

Depends on the circumstances, doesn't it? If a Master with 5 95% scores, puts up a D class score because they had a squib, I have a hard time calling that shooting the classifier to their ability.....

Certainly that run counts for match score -- but for classification purposes, it doesn't represent the shooter's ability, unless we're looking for it to represent their skill as a reloader....

I thought the classification system already took that into account by dropping low scores, but maybe that changed.

[NicVerAZ]

I did not expect such a lively debate when I started this thread but I find it interesting. All sorts of opinions.

I started practical shooting in March 2011 (steel matches) and joined USPSA in July of 2012. I became an R.O. in November 2013.

I am so new at this sport, I have no shame to admit that I did not ever touch a handgun until sometimes in 2010. I had shot rifles before, but never in competition.

I am still a C shooter and probably shoot at a solid B level, most of the times. I don't take this super seriously, to me it is shooting with a purpose and it beats shooting at hanging paper, plus I meet a lot of good people. Sitting at 57% is indeed a bit frustrating, but until I get my #### together, I am not going to move up naturally to the B class.

My take is this: I would never reshoot a classifier unless I wanted to be classified for a different division than what I just shot. Since I currently shoot production, but expecting my 1911 any day soon, I could shoot a match in the Production division and then I could shoot it Limited or Limited 10 with the production gun, or single stack with the 1911. Or vice-versa: shoot single-stack and then shoot the classifier with the production gun in one of the 3 other divisions.

I believe that any sort of technical issue such as failure to eject or feed, magazine not inserted properly, brain fart, etc... is part of the game. You need to come to the range with a properly functioning pistol and properly drilled reloading techniques and stage tactics.

I personally believe that the rules on reentries is clear: if you shoot the match in the same division, that score will not count. Why a loophole allows this to happen for the classifier only, I am not sure, except that maybe this is fast cash for the club and USPSA?

I also think that beyond a second attempt with a different gun or division, it becomes somewhat of a cheat, because I sure become better and better at a given drill as I keep shooting it.

Now, again, I am still somewhat of a newbie, I know there are all sorts of opinions, playing the rules is to be expected.

[Thomas H]

No, that's not what I said at all. You have completely misunderstood. Sorry about that.

Hm. Your words were pretty clear, between your insulting comments and the fact that you said you took offense at someone else's words (which is why you made your insulting comments, we assume).

Back to the main point:

I personally have never re-shot a classifier. (Even after some remarkably ridiculously bad runs that were gun-related, as opposed to me-at-fault-related.) It never occurred to me---primarily because I'm pretty sure that if I'm consistently shooting at a certain level, my classification will eventually catch up to that level. At the moment, I'm just not shooting consistently well enough to get to the next level even though I could make it if I practiced the classifiers enough before actually shooting them. (And since for our club I pick the classifiers, that would be pretty simple.) But I don't want the classification unless I can support it in major matches. I can support my current class. I couldn't support the next one up.

I think the classification system is useful to our sport. Some people will attempt to game the system (what a surprise, a sport that rewards gaming will have people attempting to game the system itself to reach their own personal goals!) but the number of people doing that in a way that the majority find to be against the spirit of the system, IMO, is so low that it is almost negligible. Sure, sure, we all know "someone" who sandbags or grandbags---yet, I'm pretty sure that the actual number (if anyone collected names) would actually be tiny compared to the rest of us.

If, at our club, we were asked to let someone else re-shoot a classifier (purely for classification, not for score) due to their first run having a gun-related issue, I'm pretty sure we'd let them, and I don't have a problem with that. I am also sure that we would only give one more try---mostly because we don't have time, and it isn't THAT important for any one classifier. At least, not to us.

Other people's opinions vary, I'm sure. To me, though, that keeps with both the letter of the rule, and the spirit of what the classification system is supposed to do.

[Nimitz]

Like many here I only reshoot a classifier if I have some kind of gun/equipment malfunction. During our yearly classifier match this Jul on was on track to make B if I shot I good match, not the match of my life, just a solid performance. On the 2nd stage, Fluffy''s Revenge II I posted a 4.17 sec run but my final shot nicked the inside N/S on the last target .... Game over. Without the N/S and even a C hit I would have posted a 77% run, combined with the rest of the classifiers that day, I would have easily made B. I did not reshoot it and have remained in C for the rest of this year because I have not had an opportunity to shoot another classifier.

Am I unhappy about this? Yep, but the answer is not to reshoot the classifer,the answer is too train harder so I don't make that mistake again ....

I'm always amazed at the folks who want a classification above their actual ability ... Ego is the only explanation and it has no place if you truely expect to develop into a great shooter ...but what do I know, I'm just a C class shooter ....

[motosapiens]

For the record....my "percentage" is 51.something. And you know what? I'm proud of that. I may never take my class. I may never make B. If me making my personal goal means I have low goals, or I don't practice enough, or what ever....well I guess I'll take my lowly C and have a beer with my friends. Some of us were hugged enough...and hell, I ain't been weened yet.

Nothing at all wrong with that. I'm only barely ahead of you. I shoot to have fun and improve my skills. I wish you the best of luck in meeting your goals. I didn't mean to imply there was something wrong with your goals, because I don't. I just thought the hostility towards grandbaggers was a bit out of place, but whatever, it' s just for discussion.

I also think that beyond a second attempt with a different gun or division, it becomes somewhat of a cheat, because I sure become better and better at a given drill as I keep shooting it.

How can it be a 'cheat' if it's specifically allowed in the rules? I'd prefer not to re-shoot in the same division, but the two times I've done it, I didn't feel bad. I can't say I'd ever re-shoot multiple times, but I don't really see how it effects me if someone elsel chooses to.

No, that's not what I said at all. You have completely misunderstood. Sorry about that.

Hm. Your words were pretty clear, between your insulting comments and the fact that you said you took offense at someone else's words (which is why you made your insulting comments, we assume).

I guess I don't know what you are talking about. My apologies if you misconstrued anything I said, or if I wasn't clear, or if you took the conversation more seriously than I did, or if anything I say or do rubs you the wrong way.

Just to be clear, here's what I posted earlier, in an attempt to avoid any misunderstanding or hurt feelers:

I just don't really care that much what other people do, although I enjoy discussing it sometimes when I'm stuck on a conference call. For me, personally, i track my improvement by looking at overall results, and my goal is to improve my percentage in matches, and also improve my classification percentage.

I think people deserve to have fun when they shoot, and they can look at the results in whatever way makes them feel better and motivates them to practice, and show up to matches and have fun. I think making fun of paper GM's or 'grandbaggers' is justified if those people brag about being a GM even tho they're match results aren't great. I think making fun of sandbaggers is totally justified if those people brag about a class result. I think making fun of people who do none of those things is justified if it's entertaining and they don't mind too much.

[Supermoto]

I'm always amazed at the folks who want a classification above their actual ability ... Ego is the only explanation and it has no place if you truely expect to develop into a great shooter ...but what do I know, I'm just a C class shooter ....

What else is there but ego, no one but a very small handful of shooters are actually winning anything in this sport. Plus ego is what makes you believe you are a winner, which helps you win

Edited December 11, 2013 by Supermoto

[motosapiens]

I'm always amazed at the folks who want a classification above their actual ability ... Ego is the only explanation and it has no place if you truely expect to develop into a great shooter ...but what do I know, I'm just a C class shooter ....

I guess I just don't really care about those folks, but I think the point of this thread is more about folks who re-shoot so as to get a classification that reflects their ability. If you are shooting 60% or better in major matches, but you flub one classifier that keeps you from bumping up to B, I think you should just re-shoot it with your head on straighter. Doesn't bother me if you don't want to tho.

It seems to me like *most* people are ok with the concept of occasionally re-shooting a classifier once if something goes drastically haywire. It also sounds like most people think people who shoot classifiers over and over in a 'hero or zero' attempt to classify higher than they can shoot are worth making a little fun of. It also sounds like some people would never re-shoot *any* classifier. Those all seem like reasonable viewpoints to me.

[Sarge]

I did not expect such a lively debate when I started this thread but I find it interesting. All sorts of opinions.

I started practical shooting in March 2011 (steel matches) and joined USPSA in July of 2012. I became an R.O. in November 2013.

I am so new at this sport, I have no shame to admit that I did not ever touch a handgun until sometimes in 2010. I had shot rifles before, but never in competition.

I am still a C shooter and probably shoot at a solid B level, most of the times. I don't take this super seriously, to me it is shooting with a purpose and it beats shooting at hanging paper, plus I meet a lot of good people. Sitting at 57% is indeed a bit frustrating, but until I get my #### together, I am not going to move up naturally to the B class.

My take is this: I would never reshoot a classifier unless I wanted to be classified for a different division than what I just shot. Since I currently shoot production, but expecting my 1911 any day soon, I could shoot a match in the Production division and then I could shoot it Limited or Limited 10 with the production gun, or single stack with the 1911. Or vice-versa: shoot single-stack and then shoot the classifier with the production gun in one of the 3 other divisions.

I believe that any sort of technical issue such as failure to eject or feed, magazine not inserted properly, brain fart, etc... is part of the game. You need to come to the range with a properly functioning pistol and properly drilled reloading techniques and stage tactics.

I personally believe that the rules on reentries is clear: if you shoot the match in the same division, that score will not count. Why a loophole allows this to happen for the classifier only, I am not sure, except that maybe this is fast cash for the club and USPSA?

I also think that beyond a second attempt with a different gun or division, it becomes somewhat of a cheat, because I sure become better and better at a given drill as I keep shooting it.

Now, again, I am still somewhat of a newbie, I know there are all sorts of opinions, playing the rules is to be expected.

Don't forget to get classed in Open. If you go to a major and violate production rules with your production gun you will get bumped to open. You might win something off the prize table if you are classed.

[steel1212]

Let me throw my .02 in. I see a classiifer as no more or less important than any if the other stages. You don't get to reshoot those do you? If your gear don't work. If your loads suck. If anything goes wrong you didn't have your preparations in order.

Some if you say so what if they want to grand bag. I've seen people make money off the fact that they are above their skill and it does affect more than just them.

Then you have the fact that if you let them shoot it once then why not again and again? You've opened the door for them to do so.

Either perform on demand or don't.

[Nik Habicht]

Paper GM's....still amazed at that. I'd rather be 1st C than get violated in a class I can't shoot.

Maybe they were not hugged enough as children.

I couldn't disagree with you more. I think getting a 1st place self-esteem award in a 'class' that is arbitrarily comprised of people who don't practice enough to get bumped up is almost completely meaningless. I look at the overall results, and I look at the class of the shooters near me in the overall if I don't know them, just to get a better idea of my performance. At big matches, I look at my percentage of the top GM's to track and quantify my improvement.

But if you actually do think a 'class' finish is meaningful, then you should be happy to encourage other people to do whatever it takes to classify higher, thus removing some of your 'competition' from that 'class', and perhaps making up for a possible lack of hugs as a child (and resultant lack of self-esteem).

Class finishes are highly meaningful, if you're trouncing a couple of your "same class" pals.....

You can bust their chops mercilessly......

......until the following week, when they crush you..... :P

[motosapiens]

Let me throw my .02 in. I see a classiifer as no more or less important than any if the other stages. You don't get to reshoot those do you?

You make some very good points, but imho the bottom line is that the rules are different for classifiers (for classification as opposed to match score), and they specifically allow a re-shoot. Like most rules, there is sufficient vagueness and wiggle-room to allow some people to drive a truck through the intent of the rule if they are not mocked into submission by their peers.

[Nik Habicht]

Respectfully Nik, their score demonstrates their ability. There are no other accurate measures of a shooter's ability.

How someone performs when they come to the match IS their appropriate classification, not what they think they can do because they did it once in practice or on the ninth reshoot of a stage.

Just my dickish opinion ;-)

Mark

Depends on the circumstances, doesn't it? If a Master with 5 95% scores, puts up a D class score because they had a squib, I have a hard time calling that shooting the classifier to their ability.....

Certainly that run counts for match score -- but for classification purposes, it doesn't represent the shooter's ability, unless we're looking for it to represent their skill as a reloader....

I thought the classification system already took that into account by dropping low scores, but maybe that changed.

You're right -- bad example. Substitute "a score that would drop their percentage" for "D class score." If it's due to a squib, I'm perfectly ok with a reshoot......

Actually as MD, I'm in the customer service business -- so if someone wants to reshoot a classifier and we can accommodate that, we do.....

.....cause it's more fun to run a match for 60 shooters than it is to put one for 15.....

[steel1212]

Let me throw my .02 in. I see a classiifer as no more or less important than any if the other stages. You don't get to reshoot those do you?

You make some very good points, but imho the bottom line is that the rules are different for classifiers (for classification as opposed to match score), and they specifically allow a re-shoot. Like most rules, there is sufficient vagueness and wiggle-room to allow some people to drive a truck through the intent of the rule if they are not mocked into submission by their peers.

The problem I have is once you say I can reshoot it then consequently I can reshoot it until I get one I like. I just don't get it.

[bofe954]

This will be a little aside from the weird classifier morality arguments you guys are having...

How much variation do you guys see in shooting a classifier over and over? I really don't get that much, unless I have a malf. I am a high B and generally if I try and shoot a classifier with GM times, I'll throw mikes, no shoots and crash anyway. I could see throwing a no shoot the first time around and then reshooting and getting my hits. That would maybe turn a C/D classifier into a A/B one, but that's what I shoot anyway. It's not like I am going to just shoot a 98 percenter because I already shot the thing once.

For the record I've never shot one again for score, never seen anyone do it either. It just isn't done in my area. If I asked I don't think anyone would know how to score it. I've set one up here and there to run as a drill. It's enlightening to see what you have to do to get various hit factors on a classifier.

As far as paper GM's, If you can string together that many 95 percent plus classifiers, you are doing something right. Odds are you still won't be a national contender, because how many guys really ever are?

[NicVerAZ]

I did not expect such a lively debate when I started this thread but I find it interesting. All sorts of opinions.

I started practical shooting in March 2011 (steel matches) and joined USPSA in July of 2012. I became an R.O. in November 2013.

I am so new at this sport, I have no shame to admit that I did not ever touch a handgun until sometimes in 2010. I had shot rifles before, but never in competition.

I am still a C shooter and probably shoot at a solid B level, most of the times. I don't take this super seriously, to me it is shooting with a purpose and it beats shooting at hanging paper, plus I meet a lot of good people. Sitting at 57% is indeed a bit frustrating, but until I get my #### together, I am not going to move up naturally to the B class.

My take is this: I would never reshoot a classifier unless I wanted to be classified for a different division than what I just shot. Since I currently shoot production, but expecting my 1911 any day soon, I could shoot a match in the Production division and then I could shoot it Limited or Limited 10 with the production gun, or single stack with the 1911. Or vice-versa: shoot single-stack and then shoot the classifier with the production gun in one of the 3 other divisions.

I believe that any sort of technical issue such as failure to eject or feed, magazine not inserted properly, brain fart, etc... is part of the game. You need to come to the range with a properly functioning pistol and properly drilled reloading techniques and stage tactics.

I personally believe that the rules on reentries is clear: if you shoot the match in the same division, that score will not count. Why a loophole allows this to happen for the classifier only, I am not sure, except that maybe this is fast cash for the club and USPSA?

I also think that beyond a second attempt with a different gun or division, it becomes somewhat of a cheat, because I sure become better and better at a given drill as I keep shooting it.

Now, again, I am still somewhat of a newbie, I know there are all sorts of opinions, playing the rules is to be expected.

Don't forget to get classed in Open. If you go to a major and violate production rules with your production gun you will get bumped to open. You might win something off the prize table if you are classed.

Thanks, Sarge, good idea.

It happened at the production nationals lately.

[ZackJones]

I could see throwing a no shoot the first time around and then reshooting and getting my hits. That would maybe turn a C/D classifier into a A/B one, but that's what I shoot anyway. It's not like I am going to just shoot a 98 percenter because I already shot the thing once.

That's the scenario we had this past weekend. Shooter shot it first (for score) and had a Mike/No Shoot on that run. She reshot it clean. Her first run was used for match results and second run used for classification purposes.

Something I hadn't thought about until just now is how would you handle the situation where a shooter requests a reshoot and shoots worse than they shot the first time. Do you give them the option of submitting the better of the two runs or do you make them submit the second run even if it's worse that the first one? I've never reshot a classifier and I probably never will unless I was doing it in a different division.

[redial]

It seems most of the relevant points have been made, so for the sake of discussion, I'll play devil's advocate

If a "do-over" for classification can be bought for a few bucks, why not offer "do-overs" for every stage (for match results) for the same few bucks? Wouldn't it better reflect the shooter's true ability if they got a practice run to sort out strategy and equipment issues/malfs? Or, would the match take 14 hours and the person with the most money for fees eventually win?

Mark