Zeps Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 How bout in a fictional world - People register for Regional, Semi, Club, whatever. There are specific matches for what people choose. Not just 4 matches...or at least not only 2 days so each of whatever groups can shoot. There are plenty of ranges I believe that would love to have 3gn. Pros are needed at the matches to represent, but lets say a different ~25/50 of 200 each event. New people are needed to grow and buy as well so 150/175 may work. Pros can win their prizes etc but are classified as such, and have no bearing on % for semipros to get into the pro season following year. Fictional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveG Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I signed up with 3GN, paid my $25, logged on at 9 EST, registered and got a comfirmation number. Am I a pro? Semi pro? No both questions. I shoot because its fun and I can afford it, I think everyone that does this sport is the same. Do I think I should be able to keep my spot? Hell yes, but if not I'll try again when it's open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeps Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I wish they'd honor mine as well. Or least keep my local one. But, spilled milk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniUzi Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 The only fair way to do it with demand obviously larger than the available spots is to allow everyone who wants to shoot to sign-up and to then do a random draw / lottery for the slots. All this negativity over this can't be helping the 3GN cause much at all. It seems a bit silly to promote a sport and build it up to the point it is at now and then only have enough spots for a fraction of the people who want to compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I can't help but think if USPSA had switched over to time plus scoring for its 3 gun matches about 5 years ago.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 That's actually pretty close to when we did switch over. I'd have to check my notes but we've had time plus at Nationals for a couple years and it was allowed for a couple years before that. USPSA had other issues with multigun and we still do. They are being fixed but it's axing the amount of resistance and people fighting to keep status quo when it obviously didn't work. I can just about guarantee at the next BOD meeting one of the ADs will bring up the same argument he does at every BOD meeting to go back and change stuff. 3GN has some advantages over USPSA in that it is more flexible and can change more quickly. Sometimes that is good but sometimes there can be a tendency to change for changes sake. As for the people complaining about having to be members to shoot the regionals. So what? There are lots of other organizations that require membership before shooting even local matches (IDPA GSSF)or at least majors (USPSA). Why should someone receive the benefit of 3GN without paying to support it. Don't want to be a member fine, don't shoot the matches. That's all the 25 fee was. A membership fee. Not a signup fee or a preregistration fee. It's your annual dues in the organization that is doing the most to promote 3 Gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 (edited) I can't help but think if USPSA had switched over to time plus scoring for its 3 gun matches about 5 years ago....Well said Chuck.People would still have bitched about paying $25 to join, we still would have Front Sight instead of the 3GN magazine, and no companies like Stag, FNH, Federal, DPMS, Para, Remington or Bushmaster would be writing blanks checks to them because their wouldn't be a weekly TV show drawing in new competitors and sponsors. Plus you would still have a pistol organization running 3 gun. Edited November 30, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 That's actually pretty close to when we did switch over. I'd have to check my notes but we've had time plus at Nationals for a couple years and it was allowed for a couple years before that. USPSA had other issues with multigun and we still do. They are being fixed but it's axing the amount of resistance and people fighting to keep status quo when it obviously didn't work. I can just about guarantee at the next BOD meeting one of the ADs will bring up the same argument he does at every BOD meeting to go back and change stuff. 3GN has some advantages over USPSA in that it is more flexible and can change more quickly. Sometimes that is good but sometimes there can be a tendency to change for changes sake. As for the people complaining about having to be members to shoot the regionals. So what? There are lots of other organizations that require membership before shooting even local matches (IDPA GSSF)or at least majors (USPSA). Why should someone receive the benefit of 3GN without paying to support it. Don't want to be a member fine, don't shoot the matches. That's all the 25 fee was. A membership fee. Not a signup fee or a preregistration fee. It's your annual dues in the organization that is doing the most to promote 3 Gun. Thank you Mr. Anderson, well stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csole Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 (edited) Well I actually got a call from one of the Match Directors from 3GN after submitting comments on their website. We talked for about 10 minutes and I express my views about how I thought it was unfair that the people that stuck with it do not get to keep their slots. He stated he understood my concerns but 3GN nation felt this was the best policy. He advised me that they were going to opening the registration again soon and to keep a watch out. He also stated that only about 100 people were able to sign up for a match. Granted they are still going with the redo but I give props to 3GN for actually calling individuals that submitted concerns and trying to address them with a personal conversation rather then a blanket email. +1 for 3GN on that. I will be waiting to sign up again, must companies wouldn't have made phone calls. Adam Since establishing this thread I have offered my email and phone to ALL. That offer still stands. Please use it if you have a question or concern. I will take the time to hopeful get you an answer. As for the train wreck on the match registration, I apologize and take responsibility...no one is more frustrated and upset about it than I am...but I am dedicated to making this work both in fairness and in logistics. Any one that knows me and or has participated in ANY event that I am part of can be attest they are treated fair and repectful. I am passionate about this sport and see all the wonderful things it offers to its participates...which certainly out weighs the "hassles". So be assured that at this moment 3Gunnation is working this problem... Please don't hesitate to reach out to me with your concerns...it does mean a lot to me and to 3GN, we are just trying to grow this game! Charles Sole Cell 919-201-7990 Email charles@3gunnation.com Thanks for supporting this sport! Edited November 30, 2013 by csole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinosaurMikeGolf Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I logged on this morning and registered. Will select a Regional event later when that option opens up. And Mr. Sole, keep the faith! I'm with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 That's actually pretty close to when we did switch over. I'd have to check my notes but we've had time plus at Nationals for a couple years and it was allowed for a couple years before that. USPSA had other issues with multigun and we still do. They are being fixed but it's axing the amount of resistance and people fighting to keep status quo when it obviously didn't work. I can just about guarantee at the next BOD meeting one of the ADs will bring up the same argument he does at every BOD meeting to go back and change stuff. 3GN has some advantages over USPSA in that it is more flexible and can change more quickly. Sometimes that is good but sometimes there can be a tendency to change for changes sake. As for the people complaining about having to be members to shoot the regionals. So what? There are lots of other organizations that require membership before shooting even local matches (IDPA GSSF)or at least majors (USPSA). Why should someone receive the benefit of 3GN without paying to support it. Don't want to be a member fine, don't shoot the matches. That's all the 25 fee was. A membership fee. Not a signup fee or a preregistration fee. It's your annual dues in the organization that is doing the most to promote 3 Gun. Well said. I'm in this camp. No hate on 3gn. I do believe that 3gun, as a sport, is large enough to be able to choose where and when I want to shoot. As a customer of the matches I shoot, I choose to come back the next year or the experiance/reward is not good then I vote with my feet and dont come back. This is how I judge matches large and small. The 3gn has, in the past, tried to force you into a certain path to play 3gn. I dont care for it so I dont play. No big deal. Im small potatoes.I believe the sport will grow with or without 3gn just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennille223 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Here is the other problem. These regionals are the only way for semi pros to qualify for the pro series qual match next year. It is possible and it happened to me that a person could be top 25 semi pro this year and not even be able to register for a match next year that let's them try again for the pro series based off a computer program or it's glitches. If the only way to qualify for the pro series is these matches how do you not exclude someone who had bad internet connection over thanksgiving or never even got the chance because the server was down but has the perserverence to practice and perform to try to get to the top level of this game. Or lets say the big guns show at half and not at the other half. Scores can swing quite a ways that way. That has been looked at before...the swing can be significant. Aside from keeping the "Pro" shooters out, there is no way to keep that from happening. There are top level shooters who want nothing to do with the 3GunNation pro series and could easily show up to half of those matches to cause the exact same issue. I'm afraid it is an issue that isn't easily resolved. Only way I could see around this would be to score the semipro points based upon the non-pro series shooters. Essentially, if the top points earned for semipro scores 88% of Daniel Horner's time.....his score would be 100pts and the other points earners scores would be based upon his time. IMO, that's the only way to score the semi pro points series fairly across the board. I remember backing out of the 3GN International match thinking someone would pick up major points since it was a smaller match, less people, and not likely to have pros. Horner came to the match and proved me wrong! Midwest3Gun had a couple guys pick up major points, and I think that Ozarks would have likely been the same IMO. Hello Everyone, just thought I would chime in and let you know that 3GN saw this as an issue in the 2013 series... For the 2014 Regional Semi-Pro division points race, the Pro scores will be pulled out. So essentially we will run the match as normal, including the prize table, but for the points race the highest scoring Semi-Pro shooter will be used as the 100% baseline. We believe this will alleviate the issue above, allowing the Semi-Pro's to truly compete against one another from match to match without the possibility of having one of the top Pro's swing the scores so significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigLucky Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Here is the other problem. These regionals are the only way for semi pros to qualify for the pro series qual match next year. It is possible and it happened to me that a person could be top 25 semi pro this year and not even be able to register for a match next year that let's them try again for the pro series based off a computer program or it's glitches. If the only way to qualify for the pro series is these matches how do you not exclude someone who had bad internet connection over thanksgiving or never even got the chance because the server was down but has the perserverence to practice and perform to try to get to the top level of this game. Or lets say the big guns show at half and not at the other half. Scores can swing quite a ways that way. That has been looked at before...the swing can be significant. Aside from keeping the "Pro" shooters out, there is no way to keep that from happening. There are top level shooters who want nothing to do with the 3GunNation pro series and could easily show up to half of those matches to cause the exact same issue. I'm afraid it is an issue that isn't easily resolved. Only way I could see around this would be to score the semipro points based upon the non-pro series shooters. Essentially, if the top points earned for semipro scores 88% of Daniel Horner's time.....his score would be 100pts and the other points earners scores would be based upon his time. IMO, that's the only way to score the semi pro points series fairly across the board. I remember backing out of the 3GN International match thinking someone would pick up major points since it was a smaller match, less people, and not likely to have pros. Horner came to the match and proved me wrong! Midwest3Gun had a couple guys pick up major points, and I think that Ozarks would have likely been the same IMO. Hello Everyone, just thought I would chime in and let you know that 3GN saw this as an issue in the 2013 series... For the 2014 Regional Semi-Pro division points race, the Pro scores will be pulled out. So essentially we will run the match as normal, including the prize table, but for the points race the highest scoring Semi-Pro shooter will be used as the 100% baseline. We believe this will alleviate the issue above, allowing the Semi-Pro's to truly compete against one another from match to match without the possibility of having one of the top Pro's swing the scores so significantly. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBets Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Even more awesome!! Now the question is since these are the only way for semi pros to compete for the big show how do we give all that want the chance for a qualifying score the chance. I know I have a dog in this fight but it seems very possible a top 10 semi pro this year could not even get into a match next year that let's them earn a chance to qualify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 (edited) . That's actually pretty close to when we did switch over. I'd have to check my notes but we've had time plus at Nationals for a couple years and it was allowed for a couple years before that. USPSA had other issues with multigun and we still do. They are being fixed but it's axing the amount of resistance and people fighting to keep status quo when it obviously didn't work. I can just about guarantee at the next BOD meeting one of the ADs will bring up the same argument he does at every BOD meeting to go back and change stuff. 3GN has some advantages over USPSA in that it is more flexible and can change more quickly. Sometimes that is good but sometimes there can be a tendency to change for changes sake. As for the people complaining about having to be members to shoot the regionals. So what? There are lots of other organizations that require membership before shooting even local matches (IDPA GSSF)or at least majors (USPSA). Why should someone receive the benefit of 3GN without paying to support it. Don't want to be a member fine, don't shoot the matches. That's all the 25 fee was. A membership fee. Not a signup fee or a preregistration fee. It's your annual dues in the organization that is doing the most to promote 3 Gun. I put on a 3 gun match in 2011, having been a USPSA match director, there was no time plus scoring in EZWinScore. So I made up on my scoresheets. 1 A hit, 2 hits anywhere, all clays must have at least one hole, all steel must fall to score, time plus. Scoring went really fast. I could swear there was a thread here years ago where it was suggested USPSA 3 gun should have classifier stages. IIRC, everbody was like "WHAT!?" Now look where 3GN is at. As far as USPSA, their marketing has always been slow. I remember a few years back thinking "they don't have a USPSA.org facebook page or youtube channel???" Edited November 30, 2013 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberry Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Hello Everyone, just thought I would chime in and let you know that 3GN saw this as an issue in the 2013 series... For the 2014 Regional Semi-Pro division points race, the Pro scores will be pulled out. So essentially we will run the match as normal, including the prize table, but for the points race the highest scoring Semi-Pro shooter will be used as the 100% baseline. We believe this will alleviate the issue above, allowing the Semi-Pro's to truly compete against one another from match to match without the possibility of having one of the top Pro's swing the scores so significantly. SWEET!!! Now I need to upgrade my membership to compete. This makes it a hell of a lot more fun for those of us looking to break in to the pros. Very cool, well done. Now I can remove all my virus software from Daniel and Keith's computers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Even more awesome!! Now the question is since these are the only way for semi pros to compete for the big show how do we give all that want the chance for a qualifying score the chance. I know I have a dog in this fight but it seems very possible a top 10 semi pro this year could not even get into a match next year that let's them earn a chance to qualify. Time for a one day semi pro royal rumble match to make it to the qualifier match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Even more awesome!! Now the question is since these are the only way for semi pros to compete for the big show how do we give all that want the chance for a qualifying score the chance. I know I have a dog in this fight but it seems very possible a top 10 semi pro this year could not even get into a match next year that let's them earn a chance to qualify.Time for a one day semi pro royal rumble match to make it to the qualifier match.Or you could just keep the pros out of the regional matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennille223 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Hello Everyone, just thought I would chime in and let you know that 3GN saw this as an issue in the 2013 series... For the 2014 Regional Semi-Pro division points race, the Pro scores will be pulled out. So essentially we will run the match as normal, including the prize table, but for the points race the highest scoring Semi-Pro shooter will be used as the 100% baseline. We believe this will alleviate the issue above, allowing the Semi-Pro's to truly compete against one another from match to match without the possibility of having one of the top Pro's swing the scores so significantly. SWEET!!! Now I need to upgrade my membership to compete. This makes it a hell of a lot more fun for those of us looking to break in to the pros. Very cool, well done. Now I can remove all my virus software from Daniel and Keith's computers 3GN is listening to the shooting community. We are all in this together trying to further our sport. If ANY of you have questions, concerns, comments, constructive criticism please feel free to contact either myself or Charles Sole. Contact information is listed below Tennille@3Gunnation.com 208-447-6553 Charles@3Gunnation.com 919-201-7990 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caz41 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 So is there a round 2 date planned yet for the registration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennille223 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 So is there a round 2 date planned yet for the registration? As of right now we have not set a new registration date. We are working with our web guys to ensure we don't encounter further issues. We will be posting on all of the forums, 3GN web-page, FaceBook, etc as soon as we have another set date. We are well aware that shooters are planning their 2014 season and need to plan for travel, time off from work, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnybrook Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Your EXACT quote: "Since the Semi-Pros have ponied up the extra $25 and can only get points in these matches it only makes sense they get first crack." I ponied up the extra $25 in 2013 and am one of the 119 people who made up the semi pro points series in 2013. I did NOT pay the extra $25 this year as I don't have the interest, but HAD to pay $25 I originally did not intend to spend just to have a chance at registering for a match. If it meant I was guaranteed a match spot, spending another $25 is a no brainer because I can always refuse to attend the qualifier down the road if I scored high enough! Point is, what you suggest is giving preference to anyone who wants to spend an extra $25.......or give preference to anyone who spent that $25 for the 2013. Edited for politeness. If you read my entire post you would have seen that I actually agreed with your point in regards to the Semi-Pro deal. As far as editing your post for, "politeness". Please, don't edit it on my account. Man up and let the post fly! I am sure someone can loan me a hurt feelings report if need be. Since I can see that our debate is going to devolve I think I will check out from here on leaving the last word with you. Take care, Mr. NuTZ Also, thanks to the 3GN team for acting quickly to resolve this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I'd really like to see a set of rules before we go through with registration again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Hello Everyone, just thought I would chime in and let you know that 3GN saw this as an issue in the 2013 series... For the 2014 Regional Semi-Pro division points race, the Pro scores will be pulled out. So essentially we will run the match as normal, including the prize table, but for the points race the highest scoring Semi-Pro shooter will be used as the 100% baseline. We believe this will alleviate the issue above, allowing the Semi-Pro's to truly compete against one another from match to match without the possibility of having one of the top Pro's swing the scores so significantly. SWEET!!! Now I need to upgrade my membership to compete. This makes it a hell of a lot more fun for those of us looking to break in to the pros. Very cool, well done. Now I can remove all my virus software from Daniel and Keith's computers 3GN is listening to the shooting community. We are all in this together trying to further our sport. If ANY of you have questions, concerns, comments, constructive criticism please feel free to contact either myself or Charles Sole. Contact information is listed belowTennille@3Gunnation.com 208-447-6553 Charles@3Gunnation.com 919-201-7990 Gotta tell ya.....that change is the biggest change in "fairness" I've seen so far! I personally want to shoot with and against the pros and would not want them removed from the match. I learn more by seeing better shooters who are running the same stage I am. I think the change of excluding the pro scores when considering semipro scores for the points series is a good move. As for assuring that the semi-pros get a spot....again, all I have to do is pay $25 to get preference, so it's wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman489 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I would rather shoot against the best guys also .......if I wanna "win" , I'll just shoot local matches..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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