Standing reload Question

[sjz]

But in a gun fight, is any spot "safe"? Is harder to hit a stationary kitten or a moving kitten?

I agree with you but that is not what I am talking about. I am addressing one issue and one issue only.

While "behind cover" which could be a 10 ft wall, you should be able to move "behind this cover" while reloading. In our game "cover" is safe. That's all I am trying to say.

The new rules changed this so that you cannot do this. You don't have to agree with me, but in my opinion the new rule is a. -not realistic and b. -dumbs down the skill level.

Edited November 23, 2013 by sjz

[40S&W]

Yeah, like in an actual situation I'm going to worry about moving my feet while reloading, like I'm going to worry about pocketing a mag. What a joke. IDPA continues to ensure they are a joke. Over time you will see more & more shooters leave IDPA for other shooting venues. In the future clubs will drop IDPA and go to more enjoyable shooting sports where individuals will be able to use their pride and joy pistols. IDPA is getting like Obamacare.

Edited December 4, 2013 by 40S&W

[BillR1]

The clarification to this rule came out yesterday. It's on the website. Like was done at the NM state match, it's OK to lift one foot and pivot on the other one, similar to basketball. Both feet don't have to be planted, but you can't lift your pivot foot.

[sjz]

The clarification to this rule came out yesterday. It's on the website. Like was done at the NM state match, it's OK to lift one foot and pivot on the other one, similar to basketball. Both feet don't have to be planted, but you can't lift your pivot foot.

The IDPA ruling that came out was a real gem. Hopefully the next actual rules revision will reword this section.

[Racinready300ex]

It also says that a shuffle behind cover while reloading is a PE. This is going to be very hard to SO's to call consistantly.

The last sanctioned match I shot was under the new rules. On two stages the RO's warned me about moving, but it was so close they couldn't tell if I finished my reload or not when I started moving. With 3 guys watching me they couldn't tell if I should get a PE, and I can tell you on one of them I should have. But, you can't watch my hands and feet at the same time.

[BillR1]

A shuffle is a PE. "Shuffle" indicates both feet are moving, no?

The clarification seems pretty clear to me. The basketball illustration makes it easy to understand.

[v1911]

Watching your hands and feet shouldn't be too hard of a task.

While the SO is watching your gun handling (hands), the score keeper is watching for cover (feet).

[macgulley]

Watching your hands and feet shouldn't be too hard of a task.

While the SO is watching your gun handling (hands), the score keeper is watching for cover (feet).

How would you have the hand watcher communicate the start and finish of a reload so the one watching the feet will know?

[Racinready300ex]

Watching your hands and feet shouldn't be too hard of a task.

While the SO is watching your gun handling (hands), the score keeper is watching for cover (feet).

How would you have the hand watcher communicate the start and finish of a reload so the one watching the feet will know?

Exactly. And the better the shooter the harder this will be.

[Racinready300ex]

A shuffle is a PE. "Shuffle" indicates both feet are moving, no?

The clarification seems pretty clear to me. The basketball illustration makes it easy to understand.

I didn't say it's not clear, I said it will be hard to call.

[BillR1]

I'm not sure I understand...there's an obvious difference between pivoting on one foot and shuffling both feet. Any RO that's watching will be able to make that call. It probably will take someone watching your feet though. Is that the point you were making?

[Kali]

time to start practicing

[tbarker13]

. But, you can't watch my hands and feet at the same time.

Exactly. It' s just not realistic to ask the SOs to do this. There are some blatant cases where it will be obvious - the shooter takes several steps along a wall while reloading, for example.

But asking an SO - who is supposed to keep his eyes on the gun -- to judge whether someone has shuffled their feet a few inches before seating a mag is a bad practice. It's going to lead to a lot of inconsistent calls.

You also have to wonder how often this basketball pivot-foot thing is going to be misunderstood. In basketball, can move one foot freely, as long as the pivot foot stays put. So if I have my left foot forward, I can move my right foot - essentially taking a full step, before my left foot (the pivot) comes off the ground.

Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but I bet that will be considered a violation by many SOs.

[v1911]

. But, you can't watch my hands and feet at the same time.

In basketball, can move one foot freely, as long as the pivot foot stays put. So if I have my left foot forward, I can move my right foot - essentially taking a full step, before my left foot (the pivot) comes off the ground

But in basketball you aren't concerned about a 180 rule. I don't see someone taking a full step pivoting off of their foot while reloading and not being unsafe.

[tbarker13]

. But, you can't watch my hands and feet at the same time.

In basketball, can move one foot freely, as long as the pivot foot stays put. So if I have my left foot forward, I can move my right foot - essentially taking a full step, before my left foot (the pivot) comes off the ground

But in basketball you aren't concerned about a 180 rule. I don't see someone taking a full step pivoting off of their foot while reloading and not being unsafe.

Not sure I follow you. In basketball, the pivot foot has nothing to do with direction. It just means you are free to move one foot, as long as you keep the other foot on the ground.

So, while completing your reload, you can take your first step forward. It's not a violation until your second foot leaves the ground. So this so-called "flat-footed" reload means that just one of your feet has to maintain contact with the ground.

[v1911]

I was picturing something else in my head.

I can see what you're saying now.

[Racinready300ex]

I'm not sure I understand...there's an obvious difference between pivoting on one foot and shuffling both feet. Any RO that's watching will be able to make that call. It probably will take someone watching your feet though. Is that the point you were making?

Yeah, someone will have to watch your feet. When your feet move he will have to look at your hands to see if you are still reloading. Someone will be watching your gun, and when you finish the reload will he know if you moved your feet?

How long will it take the SO watching the feet to react to you moving your feet, then shift is focus to your gun to see if you were done reloading? It won't take long, but if a fast shooter can hit a reload in sub 1 sec will they really be sure if he should get a PE?

I shoot revolver, I close my cyl as I'm bringing the gun up to target. If I also move my feet while bringing the gun up I saved time. Maybie just a second per reload. But, with 20+ reloads that will add up. Now in that probably .5 sec window while I'm closing the cyl, getting my grip and bringing the gun up to my line of sight will the SO be able to tell if my cyl. was closed or not when I moved my feet?

I don't think they can. And in the one sanctioned match I've shot under the new rules they couldn't.

[BillinTR]

Everybody keeps focusing on the technicalities of what constitutes a "flat footed reload" or not moving while reloading. It seems as though it is being made far more complicated than it needs to be. The intent or spirit of the rule is that reloading be done behind cover and that no movement towards the next position take place during the reload. I wonder how many people who are worrying themselves sick over whatever perceived advantage moving one foot forward is going to give them are really capable of making that be the difference in their placing.

It all seems pretty simple. Get to cover, stand still, reload, move. I can't believe it will be impossible for an SO to watch your gun while paying attention to your feet in their peripheral vision. And as pointed out the scorekeeper can help with the close calls. If there are any issues that come up because of the stage design then they should be cleared up during the walk through.

[Racinready300ex]

Everybody keeps focusing on the technicalities of what constitutes a "flat footed reload" or not moving while reloading. It seems as though it is being made far more complicated than it needs to be. The intent or spirit of the rule is that reloading be done behind cover and that no movement towards the next position take place during the reload. I wonder how many people who are worrying themselves sick over whatever perceived advantage moving one foot forward is going to give them are really capable of making that be the difference in their placing.

It all seems pretty simple. Get to cover, stand still, reload, move. I can't believe it will be impossible for an SO to watch your gun while paying attention to your feet in their peripheral vision. And as pointed out the scorekeeper can help with the close calls. If there are any issues that come up because of the stage design then they should be cleared up during the walk through.

If it's a close match, 3 secs really hurts. Get a couple of them and you're in trouble.

[SonOfSpartans]

As a new player and having been in one club match.........(perspective)

There was a stage that started with two targets in the open that we had to engage on the move (no flat footed shooting, feet HAD to be moving) then we went to a wall. Started off 10+1. First target had a no shoot covering all but the head, second target open. I put two in the first and transitioned to the second. I was "seeing" well that day and was aware of the first three hits but lost the fourth so fired a "provisional" at the second target. (turns out I had placed two touching. even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while)

So now I am going up to a 12' wide wall to continue the stage. We cannot shoot AROUND the wall but must engage the other targets through a window. On the other side of the window, in your face, is a no shoot. This forced you to slice the area to be able to engage other targets..........left, right, high and low........to avoid the no shoot. I get there with six rounds. Start low left then high left to take three targets. Now I am at SL. So by this new rule I have to stand there or slide one foot back to get behind cover to reload. If I duck down and take a lateral step behind cover while executing a reload to come up on the other side I would get a PE? That does not sit well.

On another stage we started at capacity (10+1) or reduced capacity in my M&P and were behind a barricade just large enough to cover you. There were ten targets on the right and one on the left hidden from view looking around the right side. So the game was slice the right side and then pick up the left. I fired three at the last target on the right to force the slide lock so I could reload in the transition. That earned me 2nd place on that stage out of 33 in SSP. I was able to do it with a wide stance and no need to shift my feet so no chance of a PE. Shorter shooters had to skip a foot or so. Should they really get a PE for doing that? I do not see the logic.

It was fun, I will do it again..........for now. I have played a lot of games but when the rules get to be more of a focus than the game it gets cumbersome. I am fortunate to have a club that shoots both games on the same day so you can run one in the morning and the other in the afternoon. That will be a fun mental exercise......

[BillinTR]

If it's a close match, 3 secs really hurts. Get a couple of them and you're in trouble.

If everybody is following the same rules and forced to reload in the same manner where is your 3 seconds? The rule seems pretty straight forward to me if people stop trying to figure out how much they can twitch one leg or the other. Follow the rule and no PE and no 3 seconds.

[macgulley]

If you are behind cover to shoot, you're behind cover to reload. No need to retreat from a covered shooting position to reload.

. So by this new rule I have to stand there or slide one foot back to get behind cover to reload.the slide lock so I could reload in the transition.

.

Edited December 25, 2013 by macgulley

[alma]

Yep, if you don't like games with rules, it's best to move on from IDPA. Then you too can do stuff like this...

No offense to Ben intended at all...very creative.

That is pretty lame. Four words in the stage description would have rectified that but there are some times respecting intent at the club level is a needed social skill.

[Steve Koski]

Ben did that in a training situation as a demonstration. Not at a match.

[Thomas H]

That is pretty lame. Four words in the stage description would have rectified that but there are some times respecting intent at the club level is a needed social skill.

"Respecting intent"? In a USPSA match, the above example would have had the local shooters laughing at the success of lateral thinking to win the stage. "Needed social skill" in this case would be the ability to respect the idea of "freestyle" in USPSA.

This, of course, is a separate issue of how people should behave in an IDPA match.

I note also, as people have said, that this was during a training class, not a match. That still being said, whenever I run into someone having an issue with what Ben did there, it tells me that USPSA shooting perhaps isn't for them. And that's fine---there are plenty of shooting sports for everyone.

But it is weird for someone to be upset at a person successfully operating freestyle to just shred a stage when that is rather the point of the sport in which it occurred.

In IDPA, of course, I'd be saying something different. But it wasn't IDPA.