Single Stack Build Major or Minor

[steel1212]

Let me throw this number at you. I've got around 110 classifiers with my SS counting L10 where I made GM with a SS. over that time I've seen maybe 15 stages where I couldn't cut it up with solid reloads while moving to hurt me against a 10 round gun. 6 of those where at one match and I did wish I had shot minor there...once.

What I'm getting at is what kind of experience base is here. I'm not trying to be a butt I simply do not know.

Edited October 7, 2013 by steel1212

[Flexmoney]

Wow. Great answers. Steel1212 I work with the Shaun you are referring to and he says major also. I like the idea of 9 for local and 40 for majors simple bc ammo is cheaper. I think this is the route I will be taking

Then do yourself a favor and listen to him!! He also knows a thing or 2 about making .40 1911s run...he has had plenty of practice!

This.

[L3324temp]

I think less experienced shooters like myself benefit from the extra two rds in minor and the reduced recoil. I have found nothing shots softer than an all steel 9mm 1911. The low recoil really allowed me to learn to see my sights and call my shots this year. I plan to switch to major at some pint in the future, but I am having a ton of fun right now.

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[dezz]

I shoot SS minor with a STI Trojan and find it not a disavantage. I do need to hit A's but that is well worth the advantages of 9mm. I believe that some day most SS shooters will be shooting minor. Huge advantage in my mind. Most USPSA shooters I shoot with have trouble with the aim part but are blazing fast. At my level I beat most major SS shooters except the masters. Just my .02

[steel1212]

At my level I beat most major SS shooters except the masters. Just my .02

At the upper levels they are shooting major AND still getting a lot if alphas

[fayetteflash]

Good topic. I've done lots of research and run major/minor guns side by side for whole matches. For me, I turned out to be about 6% faster with the minor gun on larger field courses, but had similar hits. So, the 5-6% bump in points was almost a wash. I agree with Scott that a .40 is the best way to go because you can use the same gun and same mags and choose which ammo to run. Mine even run perfectly with a 13lb recoil spring with either power factor ammo.

That being said, I agree with Corey that I've only seen a handful of stages that would truly be a significant advantage shooting minor. Some of the unloaded table starts that require 8 rounds at each position sure would be nice, but after shooting enough Major power at big matches, you get the confidence to make every single shot.

Could a minor gun win some big matches, sure. Once you get fast enough with your reloads and confident enough to make your hits, Major power is the only way to go (at least for me).

-R

[DRichardson]

I don't think that the extra 2 rounds can make up for the point penalty for the average shooter. I mean the same idea holds true in limited too. I can fit 24 rounds of 9mm in my cz75 that I use for 3 gun and 20 in my limited 40 uspsa gun but there is very few places that the extra rounds are a advantage ( on a 24 round course there is usually a good spot to reload that won't hurt you at all), and the extra points for major are there all the time.

[ericjhuber]

The first thing they did in the EMBA program that I am in is to put us through a pretty substantial statistics course and the use of statistics to make good decisions has been continuing theme. Data-driven decisions is a big theme in the organizational behavior class that I'm in right now because what might seem common sense may just be flat out wrong once you actually look at the data.

I won't have a lot of time to really tackle this Single Stack Major vs Minor issue until next year when I'm done with the program and can wrangle the available data, but I'm really interested in this Single Stack Major vs. Minor issue and I'm also very curious about how it will play out in Revolver with the new rules.

I have done a little bit of statistical testing on the Single Stack issue, however. The biggest problem that I'm running into is that there are very few people who actually shoot Single Stack minor. It makes it hard to get enough data to stuff into proper statistic tests. For example, at the most recent Area Six championship, only four people out of the 45 Single Stack shooters, shot minor. Only three people out of 44 shot minor at the recent 2013 Factory Gun shoot at Wyoming Antelope Club.

I did run some quick tests on the mean score percentages between major and minor at the 2011 Single Stack Nationals. I have a soft spot for that one because it was watching the video of Julie Golob shoot it that set of the chorus of angels in my head and lead me to making Single Stack my next division after Production. There were 39 Single Stack minor shooters (including Julie) to actually get some idea of statistical significance.

The mean score percentage of the people who shot minor at the 2011 Single Stack Nationals was less than the mean score percentage of those who shot major. The testing that I did showed that was statistically significant at the 95 percent confidence interval...but not at the 99 percent confidence interval. So I the most I can say right now is that ONLY for the 2011 Single Stack Nationals, I can be 95 percent confident that the differences in the means is statistically significant. I can't make any statements about Single Stack shooting in general especially since Single Stack nationals are, oddly enough, set up specifically for a single stack event. Maybe minor is a great idea when the stages are more general.

My plan is that next year, I'll throw as much data as I can from the USPSA website with the major matches into some tests and then see what I can come up with. It's easy enough with actual scores and score percentages because of how the data is presented on the website. What will be really painful is trying to format data so that I can try and answer questions like whether there are any statistically significant differences in major and minor shooters when it comes to accuracy (number of alphas, etc), speed (stage time), etc. (Thanks to WAC's Trent Cherin for giving me the ideas for those questions to test). The other pain point is that there just aren't a lot of people who shoot minor and almost all of the Jedi Masters in Single Stack shoot major which might limit what I can really get from the data.

I want to do the same thing for Revolver now that we're going to see a big change in that division. I'll at least have the next Revolver nationals to get some data from for some quick testing since revolver shooters are pretty sparse at major USPSA events right now. Hopefully, the new rules will change that.

[steel1212]

I don't think stats will work. There is never a constant with the results. You can take the same shooter and the same stage and same gun and tell him to run it twice and it won't come out the same. You give him a different gun and there is just to many variables.

I think to many people are looking at dave going minor last year and thinking it can be done. You have to keep a couple things in mind. Nobody...nobody is dave. He had a freaking awesome match shooting almost major and 8 rounds so if he had made major he would have won by a landslide. He didn't and he lost.

[ericjhuber]

That's why you don't do your focus that narrow. You look at a broader data set and see what you can say about the larger groups. Even the test that I ran with the 2011 Nationals was just saying that the means were statistically significant. It doesn't tell me anything about an individual shooter.

I might spend more time on the Revolver analysis because my biggest concern with Single Stack is that most of the Jedi Masters like you, Corey, have gone major. So, fine, let's say I come up a result that says given all of the years worth of major match results that I stuffed into the tests, the mean minor shooter score is less than the mean major shooter score. What happens if half of the Corey's of the world (GMs who shoot Single Stack) were to decide to shoot minor instead of major? Then what?

What I might just end up with is something that says, "Yep. The Jedi Masters are shooting major power factor and they're scoring better than the minor power factor shooters". That doesn't tell me much about major versus minor which is why the more detail questions (accuracy, speed, etc) might tell me something more interesting.

Dave's minor power factor experience doesn't help me much either since he was doing that with eight shots and it was just one really awesome shooter with one result at a one match. Like you said, Dave is Dave...

For what it's worth, I went Major when I made my Single Stack build decision because I trust the judgement of people like you, Corey. The Jedi Masters have clearly made their decision so I'm more than comfortable following their lead. I'm just curious what the data says. This is what happens when geeks get into action shooting.

What I'm hoping is that with Revolver in 2014 that I get a mix of Jedi Masters shooting major and minor.

[ericjhuber]

....and now that I think about it, Corey. I owe you beer. It might be more meaningful if try and look at it from a skill level perspective. Look at the mean scores of Grand Masters who shoot major versus minor. I'm probably cooked on Single Stack since so few shoot minor, but I could be in business with the new revolver rules.

[steel1212]

Lol Eric I think your gonna find the flip side with revo. Most of the top guns I've talked to are all going minor. Including national champs.

[ericjhuber]

Lol Eric I think your gonna find the flip side with revo. Most of the top guns I've talked to are all going minor. Including national champs.

Khan!!!!

[bthoefer]

....and now that I think about it, Corey. I owe you beer. It might be more meaningful if try and look at it from a skill level perspective. Look at the mean scores of Grand Masters who shoot major versus minor. I'm probably cooked on Single Stack since so few shoot minor, but I could be in business with the new revolver rules.

The difference in revolver is that minor gets 8 rounds. Most matches are not 6 round arrays , so 8 minor is a big advantage if you can avoid a standing reload.

With single stack, you don't gain the same advantage since you already have 8 shot arrays and 8 major. All you gain is a little extra safety net for makeup shots.

[pjb45]

Don Golembieski buit my an Infinity 40/9 Single Stack. It cost a little more but it is wild to have around.

[mikeg1005]

All you gain is a little extra safety net for makeup shots.

Sorry but this is poor advice. The only thing those 2 extra rounds need to be used for is running the match like a production shooter... 10 shot arrays. This is the ONLY way you will EVER make up for minor pf, by eliminating reloads.

Now, I'm not saying you won't have the advantage of 10 shots on 8 shot array of steel, but when you get to the upper level of competition guys who are shooting major are always going 8 for 8 on almost every array so using them as a safety net will leave you with the disadvantage of minor, with no advantage of 10 shot arrays.

I'm with Corey, I just don't see the advantage. If you are accurate enough to shoot alphas in minor to make up for the scoring then you will be just as accurate shooting major... meaning you will shoot 8/8 arrays and shooting with production guys I often see them reloading after 8 shots as well... leading me to believe that having the ability to always shoot 10 shots arrays doesn't exist.

Edited February 8, 2014 by mikeg1005

[MGMorden]

meaning you will shoot 8/8 arrays and shooting with production guys I often see them reloading after 8 shots as well... leading me to believe that having the ability to always shoot 10 shots arrays doesn't exist.

That's my take. I'm a Production shooter who just bought a single stack gun to dabble around with. I went major primarily because the extra points on C's are great, and the occasional D works out even better (sure its "just one point" but from another perspective you're getting TWICE the points for that hit in Major vs Minor). When I shoot production probably 85% of the time I'm reloading after 8 shots or less anyways - and the times I don't the stage could be reworked so that it might not even require another reload.

Put another way, the 10 round capacity will be useful on the occasional stage. Major scoring will ALWAYS be useful.

[steel1212]

Put another way, the 10 round capacity will be useful on the occasional stage. Major scoring will ALWAYS be useful.

This is pretty much spot on.

[chevyoneton]

Always a great topic, and one that with the new Revolver rules can be applied to another division. My simple thoughts are what is your "primary" division? If it is Production than SS minor would seem like a natuaral fit (10 rounds in each). Same thing with ammo, if you shoot primarily 9mm, like in Production, than run SS minor 9. If maybe Limited is your bag, then run .40 major in SS. I was shooting SS with a .45 and doing OK for me. I built a 9mm 1911 because I already had one (9X23 /.39 Super) I could convert easily and wanted to "standarize" and simplify my ammo situation since I shoot USPSA, 3-Gun, and NRA Action Pistol and 9mm makes the most sense.

[ericjhuber]

The advent of the Smith and Wesson M929 and the minor power factor rules for Revolver make it much more likely that I'll shoot revo at some point during my USPSA career. I'm all about cost containment and 9mm is nice and cheap.

[Strick]

The comparison is there. Prod is 10 round minor, compare that to SS major.

Most times it is more than just saving a reload, it is saving an extra position or even having the ability to run the stage a more efficient way when you have 10 rounds.

[dezz]

It is not the extra 2 rounds that make the difference. At my level most stages are SS friendly and it only is a plus on steel if you miss. Take a 9mm out for pratice and shoot then use the 45. Times for me are way better with the 9mm. Only catch is you have to hit A's. I find that usually not a problem. Time will tell but I believe it is the future. We will see...

[ivan]

It is not the extra 2 rounds that make the difference. At my level most stages are SS friendly and it only is a plus on steel if you miss. Take a 9mm out for pratice and shoot then use the 45. Times for me are way better with the 9mm. Only catch is you have to hit A's. I find that usually not a problem. Time will tell but I believe it is the future. We will see...

Check out the number of shooters in Major vs Minor at this match: http://1911ssc.com/news/Pistol%20Finals%20%20Single%20Stack.txt

Clearly there is a preference for Major (even the guy in 2nd place wanted to shoot Major).

-ivan-

[fayetteflash]

It is not the extra 2 rounds that make the difference. At my level most stages are SS friendly and it only is a plus on steel if you miss. Take a 9mm out for pratice and shoot then use the 45. Times for me are way better with the 9mm. Only catch is you have to hit A's. I find that usually not a problem. Time will tell but I believe it is the future. We will see...

Check out the number of shooters in Major vs Minor at this match: http://1911ssc.com/news/Pistol%20Finals%20%20Single%20Stack.txt

Clearly there is a preference for Major (even the guy in 2nd place wanted to shoot Major).

-ivan-

As many have stated in this thread... it's very match specific/dependent. Single Stack Nationals is a bad match to try to compare anything. That match has always and will always be run by 1911 purists that think anything other than a .45 is an abomination. So, the match will never have stages that break down into 10's nicely. There will never be an advantage at that match for minor power factor and 10 rounds. If you could convince Dave Sevigny and Rob Leatham to shoot a more balanced Level 3+ match at major and minor power factor, you could get a better feel for where any advantages lie.

Looking at the Florida Open this year, you see 3 similarly skilled shooters shooting major and minor (Ted Puente, Todd Jarrett and Angus Hobdell) finishing very close to each other. On the surface, that match should have provided an advantage for 10 rounds and minor, but Angus was only able to stay with the pack and not pull ahead. Lots of other factors go into it, but I still don't see minor being a real advantage for anyone.

[ericjhuber]

...and Single Stack nationals is where you get your highest concentration of people shooting minor and even then it's a pretty small portion of the overall population for that match. That's one of the reasons why I just gave up on trying to use proper statistical analysis on the problem. As a group, the GM and M class Single Stack shooters have overwhelmingly decided that they dig major and until we get enough of them deciding minor is the way to go, it's not worth the effort trying to throw statistical tests at it. I'm more than comfortable deferring to their judgement and that's why I went major for my own in-progress Single Stack build.

Now Revo might be another situation. Ideally, there will be a blend of people shooting major and minor at the major USPSA matches this year that attract the GM and M level shooters. If we get a bunch of them going minor, I suppose you could compare major and minor scores for the same shooter over a couple seasons but that introduces a lot of variations that you can't control for well.