Sheep Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Long story, but I will try to get the facts as best I can to get accurate answer- Setup- this stage in in a somewhat large bay that is about 40 yards wide- basically, the shooter starts towards the front of the bay(centered) then goes to one side, center in the front of the bay, then to the other side(think triangle). Movement is about 30 yards L-R and 20 yards F-B. Scenario-we had a shooter going thru the stage and were nearing the end. He was at his last position (the front right corner of the bay). The on deck shooter (OD) for some reason decides to start one last rehearsal. He starts in the center (air gunning), goes to the left, and then advances forward (remember the shooter is still shooting). OD gets about 15 feet in front of the shooter (but on the other side of the bay). A spectator calls STOP. The RO was watching the shooter and didn't really have the ability to see OD in his peripheral vision. So OD is completely embarrassed and handled it as best he could- I honestly think he just had a brain malfunction. The shooter of course gets a re-shoot. My question is this- is there any penalty for this?? I know that some of the folks involved are on this forum….If they want to chime in fine, but I will keep it a bit anonymous. I’m not trying to call out OD, just wondering what if any penalty there could be.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Unsportsmanlike conduct could be one. I believe that is a match DQ. However your story does not indicate malice so I would say other than the red face he experienced and the need to buy the shooter a beer, no penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheep Posted September 3, 2013 Author Share Posted September 3, 2013 no malice for sure.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 I bet he won't do that again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onagoth Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 I would of thought USC...I do not see the Malice requirement in the rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightUp_OG Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 (edited) It's not but I elaborated on the: "but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute." I am inferring the term/idea and that the decision of the RO/RM would have a standard that would need to be met. I don't think brain fart (within the realm of safety) would meet the standard. Edited September 3, 2013 by StraightUp_OG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 I would of thought USC...I do not see the Malice requirement in the rules? The range officer needs to deem it unsportsmanlike. Some examples are given, cheating, dishonesty, etc. Seems as though the guy had a mental malfunction, but I'd have to look at it with respect to - did he intend anything to come from his interference with the course? Was he told before to stop doing something like that? Did he just get ahead of himself? Here, I'd think, that someone would have to have given him instruction to not do what he did - and he did it anyway before an official could successfully fire, and keep, a 10.6.1 DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 It's basically just like pasting a target by mistake before it is scored. Are there guys out there that would do it to get their buddy a reshoot? I'm sure there are. I hope I never have the displeasure of shooting with them. Does it happen by mistake because the guy pasting had a brain fart. Yep. I did it at the Florida Open two years ago. I was embarrassed as hell. It was an accident, should I have been DQ'd? I don't think so. Just like this case. If the OD did it on purpose ( something very hard to prove ) absolutely DQ due to USC. If it's an accident, then a verbal warning to watch what you're doing seems like the best choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Public embarrassment seems to fit the bill here. I believe a pattern would need to be shown for USC, as others have said. I have seen this happen a few times on some stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 I have seen the OD shooter air gun the start of a stage while the active shooter is finishing at the other end, but I have never seen the OD shooter advance into the active shooting area while the stage is being shot. I would put it down to the OD shooter having both a major brain fart and being deaf if they could not hear the shooting taking place to their right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Pasting a target is not a safety violation... running downrange onto a live stage is. I don't see how this can be anything but a DQ. Not saying this is what happened, but then what is stopping someone from bringing their "unclassified" buddy to every match to stand by in case a reshoot is needed? It would be easier to just paste targets I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Pasting a target is not a safety violation... running downrange onto a live stage is. I don't see how this can be anything but a DQ. Not saying this is what happened, but then what is stopping someone from bringing their "unclassified" buddy to every match to stand by in case a reshoot is needed? It would be easier to just paste targets I guess. This would only work if you had a consistent shooting order from stage to stage, and you intentionally placed your buddy after you. Most matches either mix up the order between stages or mix them at the beginning and then rotate through to determine the first shooter on each stage. The only times I see a person placed in a specific position within the shooting order is to space out the RO's or keep a new shooter from having to go first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammerJammer Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 The closest thing to this I have seen was a table start stage where the on deck shooter went ahead and made ready placing his gun on the table while the previous shooter was still shooting. Nobody really noticed until after pasting when there was a gun sitting on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Closest i have come to that are new shooters coming to the line and starting to draw their gun before anyone can say MR. Only had a couple that managed to get it mostly out of the holster before we could stop them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 (edited) When we have a stage that has a lot of forward movement, I often see the OD shooter or others move to the start position after the shooter has moved well down-range. In theory, I suppose the shooter could suddenly remember that he forgot to engage the first target and run all the way back to the start position, but in practice, I've never seen anything like that occur. Anyway, we would be busy mocking instead of rehearsing, because we would have seen him skip the first target. Never seen anyone actually get ahead of the shooter, or get close to even with the shooter. That would cause my eyebrows to raise a little. Edited September 3, 2013 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Pasting a target is not a safety violation... running downrange onto a live stage is. I don't see how this can be anything but a DQ. Not saying this is what happened, but then what is stopping someone from bringing their "unclassified" buddy to every match to stand by in case a reshoot is needed? It would be easier to just paste targets I guess. Honestly though -- the fault also lies with the match/stage staff for letting it happen. Either there's a staff member who should have seen it/stopped the on deck guy, or the match was running with insufficient staff..... If I were the RM, given the story, I'd probably overturn any 10.6.1 DQ that an RO imposed..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ny32182 Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Unless you have the office linebacker running the clipboard, I'm not sure how more staff would stop this from happening. At a major match, the competitors should be aware of the most basic safety rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Complicated or large stages require more than a timer holder and a clipboard holder..... Like it or not it's up to the staff to control the stage. In order to do that, the staff needs to be large enough to have that ability..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Complicated or large stages require more than a timer holder and a clipboard holder..... Like it or not it's up to the staff to control the stage. In order to do that, the staff needs to be large enough to have that ability..... I like this. If the stage warrants 4 RO's to help run it, so be it... Don't want to use 4 RO's? Don't build the stage that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 I know the stage this happened on. I wasn't there when it happened, but it doesn't matter. You didn't need more RO's on this stage. What you needed was a shooter that didn't have his head in his a$$. How this went to blaming the RO's and stage designers so quick is baffling. How about Shooters need to be responsible for their own actions? Calling this a bad stage design is like blaming the RO when a shooter unload shows clear and then puts one into the berm. "Well the RO should have seen it and stopped him before he dropped the hammer". BS! Shooters need to take responsibility for their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheep Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 Agreed CZ.....this had nothing to do with stage design or the RO's competency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 If it is the stage I am thinking of, there is plenty of blame to go around. Yes, the OD shooter had a brain fart and never should have been downrange. But the stage also had 4 staff. 1 was running the shooter, another was scoring targets, what were the other 2 guys doing besides waiting to paste targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 I know the stage this happened on. I wasn't there when it happened, but it doesn't matter. You didn't need more RO's on this stage. What you needed was a shooter that didn't have his head in his a$$. How this went to blaming the RO's and stage designers so quick is baffling. How about Shooters need to be responsible for their own actions? Calling this a bad stage design is like blaming the RO when a shooter unload shows clear and then puts one into the berm. "Well the RO should have seen it and stopped him before he dropped the hammer". BS! Shooters need to take responsibility for their actions. Riddle me this -- how do you RO a stage, and not notice a competitor entering the FFZ and wind up level with or downrange of a shooter? Yep, the OD shooter was wrong for doing it. The ROs however have a primary responsibility of running their stage safely -- that responsibility isn't limited to only controlling the active competitor, but includes controlling the movement of all persons in the bay/on the stage. It's entirely possible that the stage staff were excellent ROs who diligently did their job -- I certainly believe that going in of any of our folks. But, in this particular case, as evidenced by the reported incident, they made a mistake as well, in not noticing or controlling the OD shooter's movements.... It's a mistake I might make tomorrow, but having heard of it here, I'm in a better position to work to avoid it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Just a question......at a monthly match. RO is running shooter. They are 10 feet down range of start position. Clipboard RO is 3ft away at 4 o'clock. RO is watching gun and shooter. Clipboard is watching feet and 180. Ok? Now OD shooter starts walk through 10 feet behind them....how do the RO's see it, much less stop it? It's a small stage...maybe 10 targets, small arrays. Should only need 2 RO's. Should not the OD shooter be 100% in the wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Just a question......at a monthly match. RO is running shooter. They are 10 feet down range of start position. Clipboard RO is 3ft away at 4 o'clock. RO is watching gun and shooter. Clipboard is watching feet and 180. Ok? Now OD shooter starts walk through 10 feet behind them....how do the RO's see it, much less stop it? It's a small stage...maybe 10 targets, small arrays. Should only need 2 RO's. Should not the OD shooter be 100% in the wrong? Yes. If the stage is that small the OD shooter should be able to walk it without leaving the start position. The OD shooter in ALL cases should not be leaving the immediate starting area and arrays until the active shooter has finished the stage. It is one thing to practice your start and move to the first array or arrays if on both sides of the bay. It is another to start moving down range while the COF is being shot. Save that for while the targets are being pasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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