Hammer Cocked Back after ICHDH..

[renzo808]

I couldn't find this in the rule book.

Shooter fails to hammer down after the "If Clear Hammer Down, Holster." command and proceeds to walk downrange after his pistol is holstered. Is this an automatic DQ? And if so, under what rule number?

[atbarr]

Isn't this the RO's fault not seeing this? I've done this a couple of times, and the RO simply asked me to drop the hammer. No foul.

Edited July 24, 2013 by atbarr

[Sarge]

Not a DQ unless the gun is loaded

5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty

magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked. Anyone

found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range

Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective

action shall be made.

[Nik Habicht]

Smart RO says "Stop" very loudly at this point, and corrects the situation.....

No, the competitor can't game it into a reshoot....

[elynch2007]

I try to watch the gun going back into the holster before giving the "Range Is Clear" or giving the time to the scorekeeper.

[Poppa Bear]

What Nik said. The RO calls out STOP and then starts all over again with "If you are finished....." COF does not end until he calls "Range is Clear" so the shooter is still capable of being DQ'ed for safety violations that are only applicable during the COF. Dropped gun etc.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Poppa Bear

[frag316]

Uhh, guys, Rule 8.3.7 clearly states the competitor must release the slide and pull the trigger (semi-auto) or close the empty cylinder (revolver) before "Range is Clear" is issued.

Until that's done, the handgun is assumed to be "loaded," regardless of whether the chamber is clear, because the safety check hasn't been completed.

I don't think that's unsafe gun handling, per se, but if the guy does it repeatedly, I'd probably take a look at 10.5.13 (Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically order by the RO) for guidance.

[Poppa Bear]

Uhh, guys, Rule 8.3.7 clearly states the competitor must release the slide and pull the trigger (semi-auto) or close the empty cylinder (revolver) before "Range is Clear" is issued.

Until that's done, the handgun is assumed to be "loaded," regardless of whether the chamber is clear, because the safety check hasn't been completed.

I don't think that's unsafe gun handling, per se, but if the guy does it repeatedly, I'd probably take a look at 10.5.13 (Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically order by the RO) for guidance.

Until the RO calls "Range is clear" the shooter is still under RO control so 10.5.13 would not come into play. 10.5.11 could come into play if the shooter reholsters without applying the safety or if the gun is a revolver.

If the shooter was really just trying to game the RO for a reshoot then we could be looking at a 10.6.1 DQ for failure to obey reasonable commands. This would require some solid evidence on the part of the RO and witnesses to show that the shooter was in fact done with the stage and intentionally failing to comply with the RO's repeated commands.

I have had people holster guns without dropping the hammer/striker. They have always been very good about pulling it back out, showing clear, and then actually squeezing the trigger to drop the hammer/striker. Most are newer shooters, on occasion it has been a veteran shooter who had a major brain fart.

[frag316]

Again, if the guy does this once, it's a "Hey, come on back and let's clear the gun."

If it's a repeated thing, then you sit them down and go over what the problem is.

If it happens after that, then I think 10.5.13 is in play, because you gave them the "Unload and show clear" and "If clear, hammer down and holster" commands. The gun isn't clear until the hammer is down, regardless of whether the RO has called "Range is Clear" or not. Because you've given them "Unload and show clear," they should not be in possession of a loaded firearm, whether the safety is on or not, and they're violating 10.5.13, because they have a loaded firearm when the RO hasn't specifically ordered them to have one.

[sperman]

I've bumped the slide on the front of the holster. The RO noticed before RIC, so we resolved the situation immediately. It might have been an accident on the shooters part.

[mactiger]

Again, if the guy does this once, it's a "Hey, come on back and let's clear the gun."

If it's a repeated thing, then you sit them down and go over what the problem is.

If it happens after that, then I think 10.5.13 is in play, because you gave them the "Unload and show clear" and "If clear, hammer down and holster" commands. The gun isn't clear until the hammer is down, regardless of whether the RO has called "Range is Clear" or not. Because you've given them "Unload and show clear," they should not be in possession of a loaded firearm, whether the safety is on or not, and they're violating 10.5.13, because they have a loaded firearm when the RO hasn't specifically ordered them to have one.

10.5.13 is not relevant unless the gun is actually loaded, i.e., a loaded magazine inserted in the magwell or a round in the chamber. There is no assumption of a loaded gun here, and besides, until the RO calls "Range is Clear", the competitor is permitted to have a loaded gun. The course of fire begins with "Make Ready", and ends with "Range is Clear", and the competitor may indeed have a loaded gun up until the "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" portion of the range commands. At that point, if the gun goes off, it's a DQ, but not under 10.5.13--under 10.4.3.

A gun with the hammer back or a magazine in the magwell outside the COF isn't an automatic DQ, either. See 5.2.2.

The best recourse is to say "Stop!", and have the competitor complete the clearing process so the RO can call the range clear and get down to business.

This is an RO issue more than anything--the competitor must comply with the "hammer down" portion of the command, and until he does, the RO cannot call Range is Clear. If the competitor continues to ignore the RO's commands, there is another section of the rule book to deal with that.

Troy

Edited July 24, 2013 by mactiger

[ima45dv8]

This is an RO issue more than anything--

Absolutely.

Own your stage.

[Nik Habicht]

Uhh, guys, Rule 8.3.7 clearly states the competitor must release the slide and pull the trigger (semi-auto) or close the empty cylinder (revolver) before "Range is Clear" is issued.

Until that's done, the handgun is assumed to be "loaded," regardless of whether the chamber is clear, because the safety check hasn't been completed.

I don't think that's unsafe gun handling, per se, but if the guy does it repeatedly, I'd probably take a look at 10.5.13 (Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically order by the RO) for guidance.

You gave him "Make Ready," right? In addition there there are requirements to be met for the gun to be loaded -- so if it turns out the gun is empty, you can't DQ. If there are repeated instances of the competitor ignoring you, then the right call is 10.6.1 (failing to comply....)

[pskys2]

The RO must maintain control. Just this last weekend I had a competitor do the speed Unload, Gun Clear Procedure. Some think it's cool to show their experience by doing it as fast as possible. This guy had his gun cleared and holstered before I got out Unload and Show Clear! "I" took a deep breath and asked him politely to show me an empty chamber and walked him slowly through the whole procedure again. I even took a good look at the chamber. He slowed down afterwards.

I always tell new shooters, there's 2 times you Don't want to be fast. At the Make Ready and the Unload Commands. Take your time, be thorough.

[MoNsTeR]

I couldn't find this in the rule book.

Shooter fails to hammer down after the "If Clear Hammer Down, Holster." command and proceeds to walk downrange after his pistol is holstered. Is this an automatic DQ? And if so, under what rule number?

Not enough information. If the safety was off, DQ under 10.5.11. If not, stop him and re-clear.

[mactiger]

I couldn't find this in the rule book.

Shooter fails to hammer down after the "If Clear Hammer Down, Holster." command and proceeds to walk downrange after his pistol is holstered. Is this an automatic DQ? And if so, under what rule number?

Not enough information. If the safety was off, DQ under 10.5.11. If not, stop him and re-clear.

Not so fast. Making assumptions gets us nowhere.

If the gun was loaded, then yes, it's a DQ under 10.5.11. If the competitor had unloaded and failed to drop the hammer by means of pulling the trigger, the RO must stop him, have him demonstrate the gun is clear, and then have him dry fire the gun prior to holstering. A cocked hammer on an empty gun is not automatic grounds for a DQ. See my earlier post for more information, and also 5.2.2. Again, this is an RO having control issue more than anything.

Troy