PF vs POPPER FALLING QUESTION

[GrumpyOne]

To be blunt, sorry about your luck. As others have said, you don't have enough cushion to account for variables. For this specific reason, I run my production ammo at 136.

[Chills1994]

So this year the safe "buffer" is say 136 PF. What will the safe buffer be next year? 140?

Why doesn't everbody just start shooting 127 average PF production loads, get solid hits on the calibration zone of the popper, and when the popper doesn't fall, still finish the stage, then get the RM/MD over to do a calibration check?

Eventually the MD's/RM's are going to get tired of the repeated calibration checks, that they'll have to set the poppers lighter.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with exercising your "rights" as a competitor.

[L3324temp]

When you run that close to the minimum, you still loose a percentage of the time and no one wants to be "that guy".

A key point is, a 125pf with a 115g bullet is very different from a 125pf with a 147g bullet when it comes to steel.

[Nik Habicht]

So this year the safe "buffer" is say 136 PF. What will the safe buffer be next year? 140?

Why doesn't everbody just start shooting 127 average PF production loads, get solid hits on the calibration zone of the popper, and when the popper doesn't fall, still finish the stage, then get the RM/MD over to do a calibration check?

Eventually the MD's/RM's are going to get tired of the repeated calibration checks, that they'll have to set the poppers lighter.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with exercising your "rights" as a competitor.

Good luck. I've never had a popper not fall when shot with my calibration ammo, at a match where I was working as RM.....

Then again my load is consistent and repeatable -- with a very small standard deviation -- something that wasn't always true before I got a 1050 to reload 9mm on....

[Chills1994]

I think the one I actually saw in person, the shooter got a reshoot.

[bbbean]

Why doesn't everbody just start shooting 127 average PF

Wrong model. PF is like the speed limit. They don't care that your average speed was below the speed limit, they care that they clocked you at 10 mph over the limit. Similarly, no one cares what your average PF is. The rule is that EVERY round you fire at a match should make PF, and the only way to do that is to make the average PF higher than the minimum PF.

[chevyoneton]

To be blunt, sorry about your luck. As others have said, you don't have enough cushion to account for variables. For this specific reason, I run my production ammo at 136.

Hear, hear! Yes, the rules are the rules and should protect the competitor running on the raggy edge. But is that really where you want to be? It is fine if you are comfortable living on the edge, but don't expect me to be happy about you holding up the stage/squad/match because your bunny fart ammo and low hit(s) did not knock down a popper.

[motosapiens]

Why doesn't everbody just start shooting 127 average PF production loads, get solid hits on the calibration zone of the popper, and when the popper doesn't fall, still finish the stage, then get the RM/MD over to do a calibration check?

Eventually the MD's/RM's are going to get tired of the repeated calibration checks, that they'll have to set the poppers lighter.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with exercising your "rights" as a competitor.

I've RO'd at 2 major matches. At both matches, every single time a popper was hit and didn't fall, the competitor called for calibration, which is what I would expect.

Really, I don't see what is the problem. There are a variety of reasons why a popper might not fall if hit (low hit, edge hit, low power round, gust of wind, etc...). Every now and then you might get unlucky. But sometimes you might get lucky too, like you hit low and it went down anyway, or you missed a paper target with 1 shot but your other shot knocked off a piece of tape so you got a free hit. On average, the system works fine.

[MarkCO]

A key point is, a 125pf with a 115g bullet is very different from a 125pf with a 147g bullet when it comes to steel.

Actually, the difference is very minimal. I tested poppers when I was working up a calibration load. I ran everything from 90 grains to 160 grains, jacketed, plated, lead etc. The lighter faster slugs have more energy, but the heavier slower slugs have more linear momentum. It is a wash in terms of actual on target (steel) performance.

[Flexmoney]

So this year the safe "buffer" is say 136 PF. What will the safe buffer be next year? 140?

Why doesn't everbody just start shooting 127 average PF production loads, get solid hits on the calibration zone of the popper, and when the popper doesn't fall, still finish the stage, then get the RM/MD over to do a calibration check?

Eventually the MD's/RM's are going to get tired of the repeated calibration checks, that they'll have to set the poppers lighter.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with exercising your "rights" as a competitor.

Take the inverse.

Eventually, the shooter will get tired of not knowing if their round will take down a popper, and they will quit loading mouse fart loads that don't really give them any advantage...other than mentally.

I'm hard headed about many things, but I want to knock steel over and not worry about making chrono. That is why I load to 135+ power factor.

[Poppa Bear]

115 @ 125 PF = 1,087

115 @ 127 PF = 1,104 17 fps faster

115 @ 130 PF = 1,130 43 fps faster

124 @ 125 PF = 1,008

124 @ 127 PF = 1,024 16 fps faster

124 @ 130 PF = 1,048 40 fps faster

I shoot Limited with 185's I need 892 to make major. If that chrono reads anything in the upper 800's I will be instantly sweating. In the 900 to 920 area I will be concerned. Above 920 and I have enough cushion that I would need a true mouse fart load in the low 800's to bring the average back down. I do not worry about the rounds that make major, the worry is about a light load slipping in that is well below PF.

When shooting major if a round slips through that only makes 155 PF it is still enough to take down the steel. When shooting minor a round that slips through and only makes 115 PF does not give the shooter the same assurance.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Poppa Bear

[Chills1994]

Why doesn't everbody just start shooting 127 average PF

Wrong model. PF is like the speed limit. They don't care that your average speed was below the speed limit, they care that they clocked you at 10 mph over the limit. Similarly, no one cares what your average PF is. The rule is that EVERY round you fire at a match should make PF, and the only way to do that is to make the average PF higher than the minimum PF.

That's exactly what I said: 127 average PF is greater than the 125 min PF.

Whether every round clocks in over the 125 PF "floor" depends on how consistently you reload your ammo, which in theory should yield a smaller SD.

[Chills1994]

So this year the safe "buffer" is say 136 PF. What will the safe buffer be next year? 140?

Why doesn't everbody just start shooting 127 average PF production loads, get solid hits on the calibration zone of the popper, and when the popper doesn't fall, still finish the stage, then get the RM/MD over to do a calibration check?Eventually the MD's/RM's are going to get tired of the repeated calibration checks, that they'll have to set the poppers lighter.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with exercising your "rights" as a competitor.

Take the inverse.

Eventually, the shooter will get tired of not knowing if their round will take down a popper, and they will quit loading mouse fart loads that don't really give them any advantage...other than mentally.

I'm hard headed about many things, but I want to knock steel over and not worry about making chrono. That is why I load to 135+ power factor.

And for the newbs who haven't bought a reloader yet?

WWB 9mm consistently chronos at 132 from my 5 inch barreled guns.

I gotta ask especially for all you CRO's and RM's, which takes longer?

A. Just giving the shooter an automatic reshoot

Or

B. Getting the RM over with the special calibration ammo, firing a calibration shot, then either scoring the stage as shot including the mike, or resetting the stage and giving the shooter his reshoot.

[bbbean]

Why doesn't everbody just start shooting 127 average PF

Wrong model. PF is like the speed limit. They don't care that your average speed was below the speed limit, they care that they clocked you at 10 mph over the limit. Similarly, no one cares what your average PF is. The rule is that EVERY round you fire at a match should make PF, and the only way to do that is to make the average PF higher than the minimum PF.

That's exactly what I said: 127 average PF is greater than the 125 min PF.

Whether every round clocks in over the 125 PF "floor" depends on how consistently you reload your ammo, which in theory should yield a smaller SD.

That's not exactly what you said. In the real world, an average of 127 essentially guarantees rounds under 125. If you're lucky, those rounds all got used on paper, but there's a good chance a few of them will hit steel. That's why I argue that talking averages isn't useful for PF. Talking minimums is.

[MarkCO]

BUT, a good supply of chrono ammo should be consistent too. I have tested mine extensively in a variety of environments. If it is 125 with an ES of 30 fps, that is not a good thing because some will be over 125 PF, thereby cheating the competitor of the valid test. Mine is 122 PF and NO round ever surpassed 124 PF in any condition, and that was several hundred rounds over the chrono. I would be highly surprised if there are more persons like me who went to that extent.

IF you were shooting a match where I was the RM and responsible for the testing of Poppers and calibration challenges, then you could certainly go with 127 PF ammo and if your loads are reasonably consistent, be pretty confident that you will be able to take over the poppers. However, if one is left standing, you can also be reasonably assured that it is going over if I fire a round at it for a calibration challenge.

[euxx]

Steel is not perfect but I'd rather shoot the game with it there than not. And I haven't seen/heard of a better and/or more efficient way to use it yet.

Let me open can of worms. Why do we need calibration?

As several people admitted, faulty steel introduces an element of luck into the stage. There is a chrono to measure competitor's PF and there are visible hit on the steel surface if steel been painted... So, what does rule that steel has to fail to score really adding to the game?

If popper is used as an activation mechanism and there is a visible hit in the scoring zone, it's range equipment malfunction. And when it is not used as an activator it doesn't need to fall to score as hit.

[Poppa Bear]

So this year the safe "buffer" is say 136 PF. What will the safe buffer be next year? 140?

Why doesn't everbody just start shooting 127 average PF production loads, get solid hits on the calibration zone of the popper, and when the popper doesn't fall, still finish the stage, then get the RM/MD over to do a calibration check?Eventually the MD's/RM's are going to get tired of the repeated calibration checks, that they'll have to set the poppers lighter.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with exercising your "rights" as a competitor.

Take the inverse.

Eventually, the shooter will get tired of not knowing if their round will take down a popper, and they will quit loading mouse fart loads that don't really give them any advantage...other than mentally.

I'm hard headed about many things, but I want to knock steel over and not worry about making chrono. That is why I load to 135+ power factor.

And for the newbs who haven't bought a reloader yet?

WWB 9mm consistently chronos at 132 from my 5 inch barreled guns.

I gotta ask especially for all you CRO's and RM's, which takes longer?

A. Just giving the shooter an automatic reshoot

Or

B. Getting the RM over with the special calibration ammo, firing a calibration shot, then either scoring the stage as shot including the mike, or resetting the stage and giving the shooter his reshoot.

We score and reset all of the stage except for the questionable popper while waiting for the RM. If the popper falls it gets added in as a miss. If the popper stands, we adjust it and have it shot again to verify its calibration.

The problem with automatically issuing a reshoot is that the stage could go either way for the shooter and it will unjustly effect all other scores for that stage. We had one where the popper failed calibration and the shooter was competing for first place in the points series.

[MarkCO]

I gotta ask especially for all you CRO's and RM's, which takes longer?

A. Just giving the shooter an automatic reshoot

Or

B. Getting the RM over with the special calibration ammo, firing a calibration shot, then either scoring the stage as shot including the mike, or resetting the stage and giving the shooter his reshoot.

Reshoot takes about 4 minutes...re-set, shoot and re-set, on average. It usually takes me about 3 minutes to get to the stage, load a round, knock over the popper and then let the stage go on to the next shooter. So I would say on average, B is faster.

[motosapiens]

I gotta ask especially for all you CRO's and RM's, which takes longer?

A. Just giving the shooter an automatic reshoot

Or

B. Getting the RM over with the special calibration ammo, firing a calibration shot, then either scoring the stage as shot including the mike, or resetting the stage and giving the shooter his reshoot.

Normally getting the RM there is faster. But I don't really care about that, I care about getting it done right. We had only a few reshoots after calibration calls. Most of the time the popper fell properly.

Edited July 15, 2013 by motosapiens

[Chills1994]

Why doesn't everbody just start shooting 127 average PF

Wrong model. PF is like the speed limit. They don't care that your average speed was below the speed limit, they care that they clocked you at 10 mph over the limit. Similarly, no one cares what your average PF is. The rule is that EVERY round you fire at a match should make PF, and the only way to do that is to make the average PF higher than the minimum PF.

That's exactly what I said: 127 average PF is greater than the 125 min PF.

Whether every round clocks in over the 125 PF "floor" depends on how consistently you reload your ammo, which in theory should yield a smaller SD.

That's not exactly what you said. In the real world, an average of 127 essentially guarantees rounds under 125. If you're lucky, those rounds all got used on paper, but there's a good chance a few of them will hit steel. That's why I argue that talking averages isn't useful for PF. Talking minimums is.

Depends on how anal retentive a guy wants to get with the reloading process.

I've had single digit SD's over 10 shot strings. And the SD stayed the same for next 10 shot string.

I know you know stats and what having particular data fall into a normal curve means.

[JAFO]

I don't know statistics that well, but Wikipedia is my friend. So tell me if I'm thinking of this correctly.

To me, as has been said above, a safe margin is when all of my loads are going to be above 125 PF. According to what I read about the 66-95-99.7 rule ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68%E2%80%9395%E2%80%9399.7_rule ), 99.7% of data should be within +/- 3 SD of your mean.

My current load is a 124 gr bullet at an average velocity (AV)=1109 fps and a SD=8.1. That gives me an average PF=137. Following the above rule, 99.7% of my loads should be in the range of +/- (3 x 8.1 = 24.3 fps). That means my velocities should range from 1084.7 to 1133.3 fps, which gives me a PF range of ~134 to 140.

So theoretically, say I want to generate a load with the same bullet that maintained my SD=8.1, but with a velocity range for 99.7% of the loads that had a minimum right at PF=125. That would guarantee almost every round would be at or above 125 PF, but still be as soft as I could load them. The minimum velocity would have to be 125 x 1000 / 124 = 1009 fps (up from 1008.06 due to the fact that PF is truncated). A minimum velocity of 1009 + 3SD of 24.3 puts my AV=1033.3 fps, which gives me an average PF=128.

So if I load to 128 PF with a 124gr bullet with a SD of 8.1, I could reasonably say that my loads should, for all practical purposes, make 125 PF. That still doesn't account for wind shifts, etc, so I would probably want a little more cushion. But is the above thinking correct in looking at what my velocity range should be for a given load, assuming I have a decent number of readings over the chrono (my existing load example above used 20 shots)?

Edited July 15, 2013 by JAFO

[Poppa Bear]

I would agree with your thinking. What cannot be accounted for are changes in temperature, elevation, and humidity. A combination of these three factors can change the velocity across the chrono enough that the 128 PF is reduced to 127 or lower which starts to flirt with going minor with +/- 3 SD. That is why so many push 130 or better. They want that extra cushion that ensures changing conditions will not put them minor.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Poppa Bear

[MarkCO]

Agree with Mike. Environmental conditions equal a spread of about 4PF on my loads. So, 125 + 3 (for SD) + 4 (Environmental) = 132 minimum PF to be safe if the Popper is set right at 125. That of course has nothing to do with Chrono since chrono you get 7 shots.

[Chills1994]

A key point is, a 125pf with a 115g bullet is very different from a 125pf with a 147g bullet when it comes to steel.

Actually, the difference is very minimal. I tested poppers when I was working up a calibration load. I ran everything from 90 grains to 160 grains, jacketed, plated, lead etc. The lighter faster slugs have more energy, but the heavier slower slugs have more linear momentum. It is a wash in terms of actual on target (steel) performance.

How about a 230 grain bullet from a .45 ACP?

from appendix C in the rulebook:

2. Prior to commencement of a match, the calibration ammunition must be chronographed using the procedure specified in Appendix C2. The calibra- tion ammunition, when tested through each designated handgun, should achieve a power factor between 115.0 and 125.0 to qualify. 9x19mm is the recommended caliber.

Yeah, I know it seems absurd to shoot a .45 at minor or sub-minor PF at a popper, but you can see where I made the key word red . Which I find odd seeing how so many of the DRL's get hung up over "should" vs. "shall" .

[CocoBolo]

At Nationals, Area Championships, and Major matches, I expect steel to be calibrated and to fall correctly. At local matches the crew makes an effort but the many factors in play sometimes do cause a popper to be too stiff. You know the wind blows, the earth moves etc, it is going to happen. Chances are next time it will be in your favor.