Classifier HHF Determination

[cnote]

We have an in-person USPSA Board of Directors (BOD) meeting in December. This is on the agenda. Well, the timing of classification updates is on the agenda, but I'll be bringing this up as well...for sure.

------> So, if you have thoughts on this, contact your Area Directors. Do it directly. Don't count on them reading this thread. Realize the BOD does have lots to do, and little time to do it in at these in-person meetings. Any one BOD member can only tilt at so many windmills at once.

The man just told you it would be addressed. He gave everyone an assignment of contacting your AD and respectfully stating your wishes / opinion. Just remember what they say about opinions. The result may not be what you want, but if everyone got what they wanted........

[Chills1994]

There have been all kinds of workable ideas how the classifier system could work discussed in this thread, but the OP asked how it does work; a question which has been answered, but none of those answers seem consistent with the results which we can all see.

Others have commented that it doesn't matter, and that a big deal is being made of nothing, or that the means don't matter to them so long as they're happy with the ends, which is all well and good, but I believe some of us, myself included, are curious how the HHFs are determined?

The more distraction from the question and derision towards those asking, the more curious I become.

I've only been harping on it since 2008.

On another forum, my detractors trolled me pretty freakin' hard. To say I was mocked would be an understatement.

I was absolutely befuddled by the responses, I mean besides the childish immature replies for the sake of trying to be funny/troll. YOU! are paying to get classified. You buy your classification. Why not see how you're classified? caveat emptor and all that.

[motosapiens]

I've only been harping on it since 2008.

On another forum, my detractors trolled me pretty freakin' hard. To say I was mocked would be an understatement.

I was absolutely befuddled by the responses, I mean besides the childish immature replies for the sake of trying to be funny/troll. YOU! are paying to get classified. You buy your classification. Why not see how you're classified? caveat emptor and all that.

You seem like a sincere fellow, but I'm not surprised you got mocked. You still haven't really explained what's wrong with the current system and what unfairness it leads to and who is wronged by it.

I personally don't pay to get classified, I pay to shoot uspsa matches, knowing they will all be held under the same rules and to the same standards. Classification is a mildly interesting side-benefit.

[whitedog]

Mildly interesting side benefit....I guess in ways.

[motosapiens]

Mildly interesting side benefit....I guess in ways.

If you see it differently, I'd be interested in hearing your view of it. What does the classification system mean to you?

[Flexmoney]

Flex,

One thing to consider on this project and many others. The USPSA membership has expertise in many different areas. The home office doesn't have to do it all. Volunteers don't have to be limited to setting up stages and holding the timer. I bet if they asked for help they would be surprised at both the quantity and quality of volunteers.

That is inline with my thoughts as well. I plan to mention that.

[MarkCO]

I've only been harping on it since 2008.

On another forum, my detractors trolled me pretty freakin' hard. To say I was mocked would be an understatement.

I was absolutely befuddled by the responses, I mean besides the childish immature replies for the sake of trying to be funny/troll. YOU! are paying to get classified. You buy your classification. Why not see how you're classified? caveat emptor and all that.

You seem like a sincere fellow, but I'm not surprised you got mocked. You still haven't really explained what's wrong with the current system and what unfairness it leads to and who is wronged by it.

I personally don't pay to get classified, I pay to shoot uspsa matches, knowing they will all be held under the same rules and to the same standards. Classification is a mildly interesting side-benefit.

Shoot IDPA outlaw then and just pay for the match fee?

[sperman]

I personally don't pay to get classified, I pay to shoot uspsa matches, knowing they will all be held under the same rules and to the same standards. Classification is a mildly interesting side-benefit.

I'm with motosapiens on this one. I would like for USPSA to be more transparent in how the HHF are determined, but at the end of the day it has no impact on my enjoyment of the sport.

[kneelingatlas]

You seem like a sincere fellow, but I'm not surprised you got mocked. You still haven't really explained what's wrong with the current system and what unfairness it leads to and who is wronged by it.

I personally don't pay to get classified, I pay to shoot uspsa matches, knowing they will all be held under the same rules and to the same standards. Classification is a mildly interesting side-benefit.

I don't think this thread is about pointing out what's wrong with the 'system', but merely wanting to know what that system is, hence the question: how are the HHFs determined?

If the USPSA board develops the classifier, then over pizza and beer decides how fast the perfect run would be then so be it, but I for one would just like to know that.

[Chills1994]

We already have it posted from the Val's section of Front Sight where she describes how the HHF's are averages, but then several posters here have already run the math and shown that classifier X was shot by Max at match Y. His hit factor was 12.94 (or something like that) which is exactly the HHF for that classifier stage.

Do you not see the disconnect there?

You cannot take any one number by itself and go "Yep, that's the average!". By definition it takes two or more numbers to get an average.

Let's say that your local match fee for this calendar year 2013 was $20. Let's say that next calendar year your match fee gets dropped to $17. However, in the spring of 2015, oh, right around April 15th, USPSA HQ sends you a bill of $3 for each match you shot in 2014.

Would you pay attention then?

Would how the HHF's are "divined" matter to you then?

[Chris iliff]

You're basically paying a per capita tax to the headquarters of an organization which then ranks you against some invisible metric that they are not forthcoming about how they actually derived or "divined" that metric???

You don't see a problem with that?

Here, let's go down to the football field and I'll get you to try to kick some field goals for me. You pay me a $1.50 per kick, and when the ball almost makes it over the crossbar I'll move the field goal further back, when you're not looking. Wanna try again? Okay, that'll be another buck fitty.

Even as a long jumper in high school I knew that Bob Beamon set the record at the 1968 Olympics with a jump of 29 feet two and a half inches. And that was way before the internet.

No, I don't really see a problem with that (but if you can actually explain the problem, maybe I'll see) because the 'rank' doesn't really matter. You don't get a prize or money or chicks or guaranteed entry to an area match because of it. IMHO, the classification system serves 3 purposes (none of which are that big a deal compared to match results);

first, it allows people to sort of keep track of their improvement (insofar as the classification represents general shooting skill).

Second, it allows you to roughly gauge your performance against people you don't know. I don't really care about the class of the local guys I shoot against locally because I know how good they are, but if I travel somewhere else, seeing the shooter's classes in the results gives me a better idea of how I performed that day.

Last (and least important imho), it allows MD's to hand out self-esteem awards to people who would probably never get trophies otherwise, and some people are motivated by trophies and trinkets rather than intrinsic performance.

So while I see that there could be some miniscule benefits to tweaking the system, I don't really see why some folks are getting so wrapped around the axle about it instead of practicing shooting or designing stages or putting on matches or running for section coordinator or otherwise behaving more constructively.

The $3/match activity fee seems pretty cheap to me to have someone else organize an entire sport with rules, championships, classification, etc.... Seems like a better system than some other sports where you have to join an organization to even participate once a year. This way the people who shoot the most matches pay the most to support the organization they benefit from. Makes sense to me.

So help me understand, why should someone care how the HHF is determined as long as it appears to be roughly accurate? What competitive unfairness is occurring because of the current system? What bad consequences is it currrently having for the sport, or for individuals? Why is it important?

You're begging the question when you say "it appears to be roughly accurate." In many cases it's not accurate at all, hence the request by some for more transparency. Why don't you get that?

If you go back and read from the beginning, you'll see that some posters do not get a lot of the reasoning. I started this thread with some questions about how to make the classification system better and it has evolved into a HHF transparency thread, which I think is good.

All I ever wanted was to know that the HHF is determined using an established protocol. That it was not arbitrary. I feel this speaks straight to the legitimacy of USPSA. I do not care what happened in the past, even recently. I do not care to play the blame game. I really don't care if you agree with me or not. If you don't, then pick just one of your arguments and use it to bow out. Anything that this thread accomplishes does not matter to you, right?

I'm glad to see the thread is still rumbling along.

[sperman]

Clearly you are passionate about this topic. Can you not understand that some of us are not?

It bothers me that the front office doesn't have a clue about how the HHF are determined, and will publish false information due to their ignorance. I would like it if they could publish who shot the determining HHF at what match, but clearly they can't do that since many of the divisions' HHF are swags from other divisions.

None of that means a hill of beans to me when I show up to shoot a match (whether it be a local match or Nationals.) I'm there to enjoy the time with my friends shooting a sport I love.

[Chills1994]

I've only been harping on it since 2008.

On another forum, my detractors trolled me pretty freakin' hard. To say I was mocked would be an understatement.

I was absolutely befuddled by the responses, I mean besides the childish immature replies for the sake of trying to be funny/troll. YOU! are paying to get classified. You buy your classification. Why not see how you're classified? caveat emptor and all that.

You seem like a sincere fellow, but I'm not surprised you got mocked. You still haven't really explained what's wrong with the current system and what unfairness it leads to and who is wronged by it.

I personally don't pay to get classified, I pay to shoot uspsa matches, knowing they will all be held under the same rules and to the same standards. Classification is a mildly interesting side-benefit.

What is wrong with it is that is not transparent.

Beyond that I don't have to prove a darn thing.

Rather it should be up to somebody at USPSA HQ to say "This is how we extrapolated/derived/divined/calculated/averaged/ouji board'ed the HHF's for this classifier and that classifier."

If I posted an ad down below for some high speed uber tricked out SVI/STI racegun for $2,000, would you send me the money sight unseen?

Or would you just take it on faith that I actually have the gun and it is just as I described it in my ad?

[Chris iliff]

Clearly you are passionate about this topic. Can you not understand that some of us are not?

It bothers me that the front office doesn't have a clue about how the HHF are determined, and will publish false information due to their ignorance. I would like it if they could publish who shot the determining HHF at what match, but clearly they can't do that since many of the divisions' HHF are swags from other divisions.

None of that means a hill of beans to me when I show up to shoot a match (whether it be a local match or Nationals.) I'm there to enjoy the time with my friends shooting a sport I love.

Exactly my point, why are you posting? It does not matter to you one way or the other, correct? Grab just one of your own reasons and bow out of the thread. If you truly feel that it does not matter "a hill of beans", then just read and enjoy.

[sperman]

Sorry. I didn't know I was only allowed to post in the thread if I agreed with your position.

I would think I have at least as much right to my opinion as someone who isn't even a member of USPSA.

[Chills1994]

Sorry. I didn't know I was only allowed to post in the thread if I agreed with your position.

I would think I have at least as much right to my opinion as someone who isn't even a member of USPSA.

If that part is directed at me, you do understand that for Level I (local/club) matches non-members can shoot USPSA, right?

[Chris iliff]

Sorry. I didn't know I was only allowed to post in the thread if I agreed with your position.

I would think I have at least as much right to my opinion as someone who isn't even a member of USPSA.

Why are you sorry? Did you do something you regret? I ain't the least bit sorry and you'll garner no sympathy from me. You said, and I quote, "none of that means a hill of beans to me....." If that is true, why post, go get some popcorn and just read and enjoy. However it works out, you won't care, right?

[motosapiens]

I've only been harping on it since 2008.

On another forum, my detractors trolled me pretty freakin' hard. To say I was mocked would be an understatement.

I was absolutely befuddled by the responses, I mean besides the childish immature replies for the sake of trying to be funny/troll. YOU! are paying to get classified. You buy your classification. Why not see how you're classified? caveat emptor and all that.

You seem like a sincere fellow, but I'm not surprised you got mocked. You still haven't really explained what's wrong with the current system and what unfairness it leads to and who is wronged by it.

I personally don't pay to get classified, I pay to shoot uspsa matches, knowing they will all be held under the same rules and to the same standards. Classification is a mildly interesting side-benefit.

What is wrong with it is that is not transparent.

Beyond that I don't have to prove a darn thing.

Rather it should be up to somebody at USPSA HQ to say "This is how we extrapolated/derived/divined/calculated/averaged/ouji board'ed the HHF's for this classifier and that classifier."

If I posted an ad down below for some high speed uber tricked out SVI/STI racegun for $2,000, would you send me the money sight unseen?

Or would you just take it on faith that I actually have the gun and it is just as I described it in my ad?

I don't think there is anything seriously wrong with not being transparent about this particular issue (although it would be interesting to know how where the hhf's come from in a purely curious way). You seem to think USPSA's major product is classifying shooters for money. I think their major product is providing a consistent framework for competition. If the classification system disappeared entirely, it would not really have any significant effect on my membership or the matches I shoot. All it would mean to me is that when looking at results, I wouldn't be able to make a rough guesstimate of the skill levels of the shooters that were near me in the overall standings. That's how it it is DRASTICALLY different from your comparison to selling a gun. In fact, that is an entirely silly and incomprehensible analogy to someone who doesn't see the classification system as all that big a deal.

I'd like to know the rationale behind each and every rule in the rulebook too, but not knowing that rationale doesn't really matter all that much to me as long as everyone plays by the same rules. To me, the question of how production guns get on the list (and whether that procedure is repeatable and fair) is about 981739487129487% more important than how hhf's are determined, because that process directly affects competitive fairness and the outcomes of matches.

I can see that you feel strongly about this issue, and I don't mean to sound like I'm negating your feelings, I'm just (out of curiousity) struggling to understand *why* you feel so strongly about something that *seems* fairly trivial to me. Do you think there are too many GM's? Not enough? How does the issue even affect you or make a difference? If I got a 10% pay raise at work for making master, I guess I'd feel strongly too. But I don't. Oh well.

Edited November 20, 2013 by motosapiens

[whitedog]

I was asked, so I'll give my opinion. I would very much like more transparency to the classification system. That being said...what it means to me.

I believe the number is arbitrary. I honestly do. I don't know how they come up with it. But I know that when my % went over 50% I felt like I made progress. I felt I did better. That my dry fire. That reading the books. It mattered that I tried, and I saw a benefit. An improvement. I know that the improvement is based on a number that can't be quantified. But I saw improvement based on the system this sport has in place. I am a production C shooter. I have hip dysphasia. I am a cancer survivor. And it makes me feel good to know I'm getting better. That's what it means to me. Some of us just want to get better. And this is the gauge we have. And I'm at 51.62%. Above average. ?

Edited November 20, 2013 by whitedog

[motosapiens]

I was asked, so I'll give my opinion. I would very much like more transparency to the classification system. That being said...what it means to me.

I believe the number is arbitrary. I honestly do. I don't know how they come up with it. But I know that when my % went over 50% I felt like I made progress. I felt I did better. That my dry fire. That reading the books. It mattered that I tried, and I saw a benefit. An improvement. I know that the improvement is based on a number that can't be quantified. But I saw improvement based on the system this sport has in place. I am a production C shooter. I have hip dysphasia. I am a cancer survivor. And it makes me feel good to know I'm getting better. That's what it means to me. Some of us just want to get better. And this is the gauge we have.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I pretty much agree with you. I think the classifier system is a reasonable way to quantify improvement, and I use it for that as well. I also use my percentage of the winner in major matches, and my percentage of a handful of experienced local shooters in local matches. I would have to rely on the last two exclusively if there were no classification system. I don't think knowing how the hhf's were determined really affects my ability to use it as a rough gauge of my progress tho, as long as the results are consistent.

[Chris iliff]

I can see that you feel strongly about this issue, and I don't mean to sound like I'm negating your feelings, I'm just (out of curiousity) struggling to understand *why* you feel so strongly about something that *seems* fairly trivial to me. Do you think there are too many GM's? Not enough? How does the issue even affect you or make a difference? If I got a 10% pay raise at work for making master, I guess I'd feel strongly too. But I don't. Oh well.

I think I finally figured out our disconnect, don't want to speak for chills, but he will chime in if I'm off base. I notice in this post and other posts you have made, that you reference class. Above you reference making Master. That seems to be what dominates your reasoning in many posts. That may be important to you, you bring it up a lot, but for me, I never thought about it that way. I can see now that some do. Let me say again, the determination of HHF should have an established protocol because to me it speaks to the legitimacy of our sport. That's it. I just see a wishy washy procedure and the calibration tech in me wants to fix it. Pretty simple really.

[kneelingatlas]

I just see a wishy washy procedure and the calibration tech in me wants to fix it. Pretty simple really.

Hear he, hear he!

Here's how I see it: there are a number of ways in which the HHFs could be calculated easily, objectively and transparently; it seems everyone who has participated in this thread can agree that's not the way they're currently being calculated and the tin foil hatter in me can't help but ask why. I'm also interested in the Production approval criteria, but that's not the focus of this particular thread as far as I can see.

[Chills1994]

I want the HHF to be tied to someone's actual name, division, member number, date, club name, total target points, time, actual hit factor. In short, reality.

If they can do it, so can I, or Scott, or Kyle.

Just because Bob Beamon set the long jump record in 1968 at 29 feet 2.5 inches, people didn't stop doing the long jump. His record was finally broken in 1991.

Quickly and easily seeing what somebody set the HF record on the El Prez or Six Chickens, etc. should inspire people to try harder, practice more.

[kneelingatlas]

You mean the HHF would actually be the highest hit factor ever shot on the particular classifier in that particular division?!?

Pure insanity.

[Chris iliff]

You mean the HHF would actually be the highest hit factor ever shot on the particular classifier in that particular division?!?

Pure insanity.

This would be the one method I hope they would not use. I'd prefer an average. Throw out the highest and lowest average the rest. I think when the 13 series shakes out we will know some things. USPSA has very good data from the various nationals for each division, except SS, to set some accurate HHF's. I don't even care if they figure out some formula to use based on one division that could be used to figure them all from. Just write down the protocol and start following it.

If we did the one person thing, that damn Chris Keen in Ohio would skew the curve for us mere mortal open shooters, lol!!!

Edited November 20, 2013 by Chris iliff