motosapiens Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Ok. We have a system in place. Right? That system appears to be rather "off". The HHF's are not known. How they got them is not known. Who shot them is not known. That covers it, right? The HHFs *do* seem to be known. It only takes one posted score to determine the HHF with great accuracy. I agree with "How they got them is not known. Who shot them is not known." But I'm not yet convinced that the system is "off". Aside from kneelingatlas' curiousity not being satisfied (and mine as well), what is so "off" about not knowing in precise detail how the HHF's were determined? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 (edited) You'd think a guy with the last name of Weaver and from Idaho would have more of a questioning attitude when it comes to some higher authority saying "we do things this way, X, Y, and Z", and several other posters have clearly shown that is not how things are actually done. On other forums, posters responding just like motosapiens have earned the monikers of "COINTEL PRO" or "astroturfers". Now you've done it. Blue helmeted UN goons will soon be showing up to take you to one of the FEMA death camps as we start implementing Agenda 21. fwiw, I agree that the official explanations we have been given appear to be BS. Edited November 21, 2013 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Do you look at your paycheck stubs to see how much is getting taken out for taxes? Do you care about how your tax money is used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Do you look at your paycheck stubs to see how much is getting taken out for taxes? Do you care about how your tax money is used? Do you think that's a relevant analogy? I don't. A better analogy would be "Do you want to see the arithmetic calculations that determine how much is withheld based on income and claimed exemptions?" and my answer would be "not really, as long as the results are roughly accurate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 (edited) What's your USPSA member number? EDIT: never mind! Edited November 21, 2013 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Oh my god....I am now at the point that I don't care if the HHF was shot by a hamster using a unicorn turd cannon. And I truly hope the secret result of said turd cannon is buried in hoffa's pocket. Either follow protocols or not. But the meaningless crap you people are regurgitating leads me to believe neither of you truly care. Just speaking to be heard. And I do hope it's done by turd cannon....at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Oh my god....I am now at the point that I don't care if the HHF was shot by a hamster using a unicorn turd cannon. And I truly hope the secret result of said turd cannon is buried in hoffa's pocket. Either follow protocols or not. But the meaningless crap you people are regurgitating leads me to believe neither of you truly care. Just speaking to be heard. And I do hope it's done by turd cannon....at this point. Oh my god....I am now at the point that I don't care if the HHF was shot by a hamster using a unicorn turd cannon. And I truly hope the secret result of said turd cannon is buried in hoffa's pocket. Either follow protocols or not. But the meaningless crap you people are regurgitating leads me to believe neither of you truly care. Just speaking to be heard. And I do hope it's done by turd cannon....at this point. My apologies if I am one of those guys just spouting off just for the sake of "hearing my own voice". I think I am done with this thread. Back in 2008 when I first brought this up, I got frustrated then, too. It just seems like so much of "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" kind of a thing back then as it is now. We have at least one AD who has said quite publicly he is going to bring it up at the next BoD meeting, which will be in person. What more can I ask for then? It sounds like some other posters here in this thread have contacted or will contact their AD's. So I hope it does turn into one of those "squeaky wheel gets the grease" things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Yes...I also. And I truly hope transparency occurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 oy... This thread from 2001 : http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5162&hl=%2Bhigh+%2Bhit+%2Bfactor#entry1290920 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Have you emailed your AD? Yes, eagerly awaiting his reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted November 21, 2013 Author Share Posted November 21, 2013 Ok. We have a system in place. Right? That system appears to be rather "off". The HHF's are not known. How they got them is not known. Who shot them is not known. That covers it, right? Now instead of going back and forth using big words and almost insults...how about this. If the present system bothers you, contact your AD. I did. If you don't mind how it is, or don't care, don't contact your AD. A simple post about a known issue has turned infantile. An opportunity for real answers and/or solutions wasted. Neither sides views have any weight when a discussion degrades like this. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^gold start post in other words....stop your crying and if you got a problem with it then follow the correct channels if you don't and it doesn't bother you, then don't worry about it, and continue on....just in another thread Thanks jake.... Did the AD and President of USPSA contact thing back during the first page. Happy to say my AD replied forthwith. The President, not so much. I am confident "something" will happen. As for "insults" I'd like to extend an apology to anyone who was offended by my attempts at humor. I never pointed out anyone else's veiled insults and plausibly deniable slights when they were directed at me or those of us who just want an established procedure. So I thought game on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 oy... This thread from 2001 : http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5162&hl=%2Bhigh+%2Bhit+%2Bfactor#entry1290920 Just for the record, I am not saying I was the first to notice it. I only joined USPSA in 2007. I might have gone and watched a match in 94 or 95. Some guys from Bragg might have even loaned me some equipment and coaxed me to shoot the El Prez. I think shred's thread with the graphs would be a good one to link to, also. If I was on a real computer it would be easier for me to do a search, and I'd post the link myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 When did the USPSA.org page first become live where people could check out their own classifier pages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I'll go email my AD. The last two things I asked him to bring up at a BOD meeting were rejected. I might as well go for three... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Back in 2002, I had access to the database that is used to generate the pages on the USPSA web site (I do not any longer, so stop PM-ing me) At that point I plotted a large random selection of USPSA shooters by the percentages they'd shot on classifiers. The results made it clear that the HHF was adjusted by "the average of the 10 best" or whatever the party line was (and IIRC still is) approximately never. Since then my observation is USPSA pays a little more attention to scores and/or complaints, with the results that HHFs do get adjusted occasionally if they are way out of whack. Last time I really cared (several years ago before I got the GM card), they were only adjusted occasionally and not automatically. That makes sense since you don't want some random fat-fingering the keyboard during club-match score entry or timer malfunctions or stats-jokers hosing up the HHF with some sort of auto-process. From outside the process, it appears that they are set at a major match to the 100% score, and then maybe are manually adjusted later... if they really need it. When a division isn't represented, a SWAG is made. Why USPSA doesn't up and say this now that classifier HHFs are no longer secret (page 2), I don't know. So stop worrying that there's a cabal of GMs hiding out in the desert somewhere blasting classifiers over and over until they reset the HHFs. Doesn't happen. Here's the thread with the pretty, now woefully out-of-date, graphs: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3587 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 (edited) For the the record. I sent my AD, Kyle Farris, a text concerning this and my opinion. He answered very quickly. Pretty cool I think. I have e mailed the prez in the past with questions. Twice to be exact. Both times the responses were so vague they barely related to the questions I asked. Have no intention of trying again. AD good enough for me. Oh, and please stop sending pm's. Yer view is yours...it won't change mine. Thanks. Edited November 22, 2013 by whitedog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 When did the USPSA.org page first become live where people could check out their own classifier pages? It was working when I joined in May 2001, IIRC.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Oh, and please stop sending pm's. Yer view is yours...it won't change mine. Thanks. I'm not a pm-sending type, but I actually enjoy lively discussion and the exchange of different views. I find I often do change my view at least a little when I learn more about other peoples' views and why they they feel the way they do. I appreciate everyone taking the time to share their thoughts, even tho my questions apparently came across annoying or even insulting to some. I sometimes forget the internet is different than sitting around chatting with friends after a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozy Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 I have emailed my AD, Prez, Val, and John Amidon. Phil said that he wasnt sure on how the HHF was calculated and forward my email to Val and john. No response from them. I did call Val at HQ this week, she was nice but still couldnt answer all the questions on how the determine the HHF. She said that she would bring it up at the next board meeting. What worries me is that there is no mention of this subject on the BOD meeting notes on USPSA site. I really hope this doesnt get swept under the rug. I am counting on my elected AD to ensure this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 I had kind of a novel thought last night, well two thoughts actually. One, considering how the classification system (such and such percentage equals B class) is spelled out in the rulebook, have the procedure for determining HHF also spelled out in the rulebook. Two, if some or all of these newer classifier stages are being beta tested by Nat's attendees, and it is decided that stage is going to be in the new CM series, then add a block in there in the CoF diagram that it was shot at the 201X Nat's. The highest scores were shot by: Open: Travis Tomasi 11.5 Limited: Max Michel 11.03 Production: Bob Vogel 10.5 Limited 10: Dave Sevigny 11.2 Revolver: Jerry Miculek 10.5 Single Stack: not available/separate Nat's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 That's a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 When did the USPSA.org page first become live where people could check out their own classifier pages?It was working when I joined in May 2001, IIRC.... Thanks Nik! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 That's a good idea. Danke! If I haven't deleted the CoF template off my hard drive, I might be back later with an example of what it would look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedog Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Looking forward to any thing you can provide that can help. I honestly believe the system exists the way it does only because that's how it's always been done. If Uspsa really wants a marketing presence they should advertise the top dogs. How else than HHF? So and so burned this stage down. See what he did? Join us and beat him. Make sense? Disclaimer.....few beers in. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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