Alphamikefoxtrot Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I am not wanting to start a flame war or anything, but I would just like to know the idea behind this rule. Some matches print proxy forms and place them in their match booklets and allow a shooter's proxy to pick up his buddy's prize for him. I have literally seen the doors close on a half a shipping container full of prize tables because "you must be present to go to the prize table", and a bunch of the competitors had already left. What happens to those prizes? My first thought would be that it keeps shooters there to patronize the vendors, except that 90% of the vendors have already packed up by the time the prize tables are set up anyway. After that, I have no idea why a MD would have that rule. Well, I have an idea, but like I said, I don't want to start a flame war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 At the State & Regional NRA Action PIstol matches we run here in VA, that rule is in effect. As to why, it keeps some shooters from the ole "shoot'n'scoot" routine, not really caring about the prize table and someone else takes it upon themselves to "represent" the missing shooter without that shooter's knowledge, thereby doubling their prizes or more! I suppose we could have the ones who plan to leave sign a proxy form, but that just adds to the already overwhelming paperwork for the match. As I said, most of the ones who leave don't care about the table anyway. As to what happens to the prizes, at our events the shooters keep going to the prize table until everything is gone, sometimes as many as 3 trips for some before the day is done. Any awards such as plaques and checks are mailed to the appropriate winners if they have to leave, some due to the distances they have to travel getting back home. Nothing gets left behind insofar as the table is concerned. Alan~^~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphamikefoxtrot Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 The matches that I have seen where they use proxy forms, the proxy simply walks up to the table when it is their buddy's turn and shows the form to the guy at the door. He is then allowed to go in and pick. No paperwork other than to show the form to the door guy. If you got to the point where someone was stealing, then I guess that would become a whole other issue altogether, but shooters are generally a good bunch. I am sure there are a few bad apples here and there, but they are the exception. I have never been to a match where you get to go back to the prize table as long as there are prizes. That would work as well. At the ones that I have attended, at the end, they simply close the door and say goodbye. I assume that those prizes are handed out to the RO's for their efforts, but I am not certain of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseywales Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 WHY? It may be as simple as the match administrators not wanting to incur the post match expense and responsibility of selecting, re-packaging, and mailing prizes to every competitor that decided to leave early or did not designate a prize proxy. ...I have literally seen the doors close on a half a shipping container full of prize tables because "you must be present to go to the prize table", and a bunch of the competitors had already left. What happens to those prizes? What I've seen at recurring matches is: 1 - the prizes become part of the prize table the following year, or 2 - after everyone has been to the prize table, the match RO's are offered a second trip to the prize table, any remaining competitors still hanging around are offered the same, or 3 - both of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphamikefoxtrot Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 If they left and didn't designate a proxy, then they get nothing and then prizes are either option 1 or option 2. Those I have no problem with. It is when they do not allow the proxy forms to be used that irks me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Did you ask the Match Director? Heck, maybe you can help with the prize table next time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphamikefoxtrot Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Nice side step there. Put it back on me. Sorry, but I am not going to volunteer to run prize tables at matches 8-12 hours away from my home just so that I can make sure that they do the right thing. It is simply a question. Why would you not allow proxy forms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Does the word "forgery" mean anything to you? There are plenty of dishonest people out there who would do just that. Not many, but they are out there. Alan~^~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 AMF, we may have been the victims of this at the same match a little while back. I didn't read far enough into to details to catch that nugget myself. I also think its a tough pill to swallow; especially tough if you're a Friday shoot-thru and the table isn't until Sunday afternoon. It seems like there could be some way around this issue that would satisfy the shooters, match officials, and, most importantly, the sponsors kind enough to donate stuff. I'm also curious as to how much stuff is REALLY donated vs. how much is purchased with entry fees. Seems that the stuff purchased should be available to anyone in the match. I don't know, it just smells funny. I will shoot 3-4 matches this year on Fridays and go home after. I have young kids and see no reason to be gone for 2+ days when I can shoot the match in one. Just means that I'm not around on Sunday and saves me some hotel costs too. I'm still just as much of a consumer in the shooting industry and it stings to be cut out of the prize table. Another example would be a match that filled the main match but would allow a shooter to shoot Friday with RO's, etc. That guy pays the same fees and shoots the same match. He also takes an extra day off work to do it. But, he has to either spend extra time in a hotel for no reason other than to hang around for Sunday afternoon prize table or drive home and back for table on Sunday afternoon. Gotta be a better way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 One of the remedies I have seen for the above mentioned Friday shooters is a separate random draw prize table. They walk after the shooting is done. Also, the Space City match does a random prize table on Saturday after the shooting is done, so that those who have to shoot and scoot on Sunday can still get something and vendors and sponsors are getting good exposure. Sunday is for awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskinsler83 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Prizes are prizes and should be for the shooters and staff period they should do random draw and have it with your sign in packet at registration day of match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Prizes are prizes and should be for the shooters and staff period they should do random draw and have it with your sign in packet at registration day of match I was with you until the random draw part. Prizes are for shooters and staff and should be given in order of finish. This ain't teeball. Everybody doesn't get a trophy. Winners get the best prizes and the girls. Losers don't get either. (They get mad at the winners and create software companies and get all the money from the winners and THEN they get the girls.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Amish 1 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 (edited) Prizes are prizes and should be for the shooters and staff period they should do random draw and have it with your sign in packet at registration day of match I was with you until the random draw part. Prizes are for shooters and staff and should be given in order of finish. This ain't teeball. Everybody doesn't get a trophy. Winners get the best prizes and the girls. Losers don't get either. (They get mad at the winners and create software companies and get all the money from the winners and THEN they get the girls.) Nope, sorry. Not at Space City, and most shooters, including the higher-ranking are pretty happy with the arrangement. Plaques, trophies and girls go by order of finish - prizes are random. It actually goes faster than letting every shooter peruse the respective division prize tables and even a novice or lower scoring shooter has a chance to win a gun, a press or a rangebag. Actually pretty motivating. Sunday, then, as Ken said, is for trophies and plaques only. One can stick around or the plaque is mailed to the respective winner. Seems to work pretty good, at least for Space City. Edited June 5, 2013 by Team Amish 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskinsler83 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Well since I'm apparently trolled on Enos lol Anyways I'm saying if the prize table is gonna be order of finish then it needs to be noted in application. Otherwise it's usually done random and with you sign in at registration. WHICH MAKES IT FASTER AND IT'S DONE! Most matches that are order of finish are like the big 3 gun matches and the ProAm/ProAm 3G or something scored with the Lewis system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchet Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I guess the match director can do it either way. If I feel like getting a prize, I stay. If not, I leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul788 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 SC section match does the random drawing early and you can pick what you got up during the match. Prize money and plaques are awarded at the end. Great way to "get er done" and spreads the donated stuff out to the shooters and staff. Versus the bottleneck at the table while other winners are still being called out. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 All of the matches I've been to don't have a problem with another shooter walking the prize table for them. I think having to be there to get a prize is BS. If you as a match director is going to practice this please advertise before hand that you are going to do this. It will help your customer make their decision to attend or not attend your match. If you are really worried about forgeries and stuff I have to first say "Huh!?!?". Almost all of the big matches I've gone to over the years either have a nice name tag/pin with division (Nationals) or a computer generated name tag that's either in a holder or laminated. Just have the walking shooter have the signed release and the harder to forge ID/name tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphamikefoxtrot Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) That's exactly the reason that I don't go back to XXX - I finished first in my class (A) and got a pair of ear plugs while others who finished really poorly got guns. That and the fact that it is such a small match and it gets smaller when they have to throw out stages. I work on a 100% commission system. I only get what I earn. I can't comprehend why, in a competition, people would want to award prizes and awards based upon anything but performance. I really don't have a problem with the way that they do it at the pro-am either. It is still performance based. Edited June 11, 2013 by ima45dv8 match-specific reference removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Does the word "forgery" mean anything to you? There are plenty of dishonest people out there who would do just that. Not many, but they are out there. Alan~^~ If you're shooting at matches where you seriously think people are forging forms to steal something off the prize table, you need to start going to better matches or consider the possibility that you may be a little paranoid. Personally, I wouldn't spend my time running around with a bunch of armed theives! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskinsler83 Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 the random draw is based on the fact that with the people at the bottom having a chance to win a nice prize keeps everyone coming to a match instead of the prize table people. besides that most sanctioned matches award cash to the top division winners so there is the award for shooting the best. im sure everyone at the top didnt start out at the top now did they? basically if all you are worried about is the prize then shoot the matches that award the prizes based on order of finish. pretty easy in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Like dskinsler said, it's the larger base of lower ranked shooters that make up the bulk of the competitors, and it's their fees that go to pay for the prize table (at least at our sectional, my MD buddy tells me he may get some discount for prizes from the vendors, but it's only part of the goodies that are donated free). Having a shot at a gun, even if its just a .22 Ruger, is a draw for a C or D class shooter, who may be less inclined to travel to a match where he knows he will finish in the lower third of the scores and see the GM's take home the good stuff. Low attendance = low match fees = small/sparse prize table. I've seen cash awards at the top plus random draw, by order of finish only, random only, and no prize table at all. The first, seems to be getting more popular, at least out here. I've seen separate RO drawings. Whatever, it should be laid out in advance for all to see. I'm for must be present pesonally or by proxy. Name badges seem to work as a good proxy, for matches that use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Random draw prize tables are the way to go. This way all the rank and file shooters who support the sport day in and day out but are not a top tier shooter still have a chance to win a great prize. If you walk the table by order of finish then the top shooters will always be getting the top prizes when a lot of them are already sponsored in some fashion and just end up selling the prize for some extra cash since they don't need it. This way the sponsor gets the full effect of his donation because the rank and file shooter will be talking about the gun he won from company X to anyone who will listen at every match he shoots for the next year ....even if I was a top shooter expecting to finish in the top 3 every time I shot I'd still like to see random draw prize tables .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-the new guy Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 (edited) That's exactly the reason that I don't go back to XXX - I finished first in my class (A) and got a pair of ear plugs while others who finished really poorly got guns. That and the fact that it is such a small match and it gets smaller when they have to throw out stages. I work on a 100% commission system. I only get what I earn. I can't comprehend why, in a competition, people would want to award prizes and awards based upon anything but performance. I really don't have a problem with the way that they do it at the pro-am either. It is still performance based. your logic may leave you with ear plugs anyway. if prizes were awarded in order of finish and you were not high overall or top 5 overall then why should you get anything as just high A? I don't know what industry you are in but it really does not matter it probably takes a lot of support staff for you to "earn" your commission. Should they get nothing because they didn't earn it? Edited June 11, 2013 by ima45dv8 match-specific reference removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZGunut Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 This is one of the reasons why 3 gun matches are growin so fast and USPSA matches are falling off. USPSA matches are somewhat PC in that almost everyone gets recognized as to not upset anyone just like a kindergarten spelling bee. Everyone gets a plaque or recognition. If there are enough people in a class I have seen them give plaques down to 8 th place in let's say C Open. In 3 gun the top 3-5 people Overall in their division and maybe th top 2-3 ladies and Senior, Super, military etc. Prize table distribution at an major 3 gun is Always order of finish. Why would you strive to get better if you can be near last and receive better compensation that a top place finisher. USPSA shouldn't be like IDPA and hopefully match directors will figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted June 9, 2013 Share Posted June 9, 2013 This topic has wandered quite a way from OP... Issue wasnt just about how prizes are distributed... "Must be present to win" a prize regardless of distribution methodology. Kinda lame for people with long drives home, Friday shoot-thrus, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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