Range Commands

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

8.3.1 "Load And Make Ready" or "Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire". Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

...... 8.3.1.1 Once the "Load and Make Ready" or "Make Ready" command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the "Start Signal" without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer. Violation will result in a warning for the first offense and may result in the application of Rule 10.6.1 for a subsequent offense in the same match.

How do you feel about adding the words in red above? It occurred to me over the weekend that it's a bit silly saying the words "Load And" when the gun ready condition is either totally empty (i.e. empty chamber and empty magwell) or "magazine inserted, chamber empty".

The alternative could be to only use "Make Ready" but, given that old habits die hard, the option to use two different commands, depending on the COF, makes sense to me.

[Dead Buff]

I see no problem with your proposed changes to use both commands....it makes sense

-------------------------

Can we add: "You may cap your wheelgun, Sir." As start command for the rev shooters

[Greg G]

Vince we pretty much do what the proposed rule states at the moment where I shoot, seems like common sense. Putting it in writing sounds ilke a good idea to me.

[dajarrel]

A redneck's thoughts from South Alabama:

I think the command should remain "Load and Make Ready" because:

1. The command , to me, is a two step command. First you prepare your gun then you prepare yourself for the COF

2. It matches the command at the end, "Unload and show clear", also a two step command.

Besides, sometimes the commands that have become silly sounding over the years to you and I are actually the step-by-step instructions that someone new to our sport would need to enjoy it safely.

FWIW

dj

[Neil Beverley]

Vince

I would support the change, it's already in the Shotgun rule book. I think we should stick with "Load and Make Ready" when appropriate because there is then no doubt that a shooter has been a command to "Load".

[Skywalker]

Vince,

this is more or less what is actually being used here in Italy, at least with those ROs that feel uneasy or just plain wrong when ordering "Load and make ready" for a COF that states a starting condition with unloaded gun.

I use it already too.

But, having said that, since you are exploring the possibility of updating the range commands, I'd like to say that it would be easier and more adequate if the LAMR command could be changed in a two-stages command: something along the lines of

"Prepare handgun in ready condition"

and

"Take up starting position".

This would split the whole operation in two different tasks, thus allowing the competitor and RO to focus on each single operation.

Of course, the actual provisions made by rule 8.3.1 and 8.3.1.1 would apply since the issuing of "Prepare handgun in ready condition" command.

With actual different starting conditions and positions, I feel more specific commands would be better than the generic LAMR.

(Now I'll go buying you some painkiller for giving you another headache)...

[Jim Norman]

In point of fact we do the same as the suggestion. The problem as I see it is that it is yet another rule or rule change. We aren't simplifying things by making the change, we are adding another line.

In this particular case and since Neil says this is already how it is done in SG, then Go for it, but always remember that every change has a ripple effect. In this case we have to consider those to whom English is not understood having to learn a new command structure.

There are ttwo courtesy calls often given. Range is (or is going) Hot! prior to the "Offical" start of the COF and "Do you understand the COF?"

In non-english speaking areas I'd assume that similar additional comments are made. Prehaps wrongly. Do we want to see this added as well?

Jim

[Garfield]

Hi,

Here in NL, and also in Germany and Slovakia where I have RO-ed too, this command is already used in fact.

Putting it in writing sounds like a good idea to me.

[9x23]

Just a thought if you are making a change in start command:

"Prepare Your Firearm To Start And Assume Your Start Position"

9x

(breaking a 20+ year old habit would be tough though)

Edited October 18, 2004 by 9x23

[LPatterson]

Having finally gotten a rule book that is not effective for another month that the rest of the world has been using for most of this year, I don't think we need to start changing it just yet. If you are asking about possible additions 2 or 3 years in the future the how about changing "Load And Make ready" to "Load Or Make Ready". I have only been shooting for 5 years here in the great North West and I have never seen a stage that started with an empty gun.

Here in Montana the gun in the pickup window is probably loaded. And when I am out and about, the gun on my hip is loaded.

[pwalker]

I think that it would be simpler and just as effective to change the command to "Make Ready" for all starts. One simple command, easy to say and clearly indicates what the competitor must do.

Regards

Peter

[JohnL]

I agree with dajarrel. There is a two step process to begininig a course of fire. Readying the gun then preparing yourself to begin. When I give the LAMR command I focus my attention on the firearm as it is prepared and I continue as it is placed in the position required in the course description. When that has happened I watch the competitor as they ready themselves. When they settle into the start position then I know I can give the Standby command. IMHO, it makes sense to recognize the two step process by having a two step command.

[sfinney]

The problem as I see it with adding just the plain " Make Ready" command, as a second command, could possibly be more DQ's ?

Example - (I know we've all seen this)

Table start unloaded gun start position

RO: Load and Make Ready

Shooter: draws gun, and out of habit puts mag in gun and racks slide chambering a round - about this time, the light bulb goes on and the RO corrects the shooter on the start position, shooter unloads and tables the gun empty, and assumes start postition - no harm done.

But with just the "Make Ready" command (as a second command), how about this?

Same unloaded table start

RO: "Make Ready"

Shooter: draws gun, and out of habit puts mag in gun and racks slide chambering a round

RO: "STOP!" and then informs the shooter to unload and show clear, and then DQs the shooter for loading his pistol without the command to do so?

Not sure if that would be the interpretation, but I know a lot of ROs that would probably lean that way.

I agree with the above posts, that a second command is not necessary, but if you do change it, delete "Load and Make Ready" and make it one command such as "Make Ready" that clears the shooter to do what ever he needs to do get ready to shoot - loaded, unloaded whatever.

[Jim Norman]

sfinney,

It is a sad state that we would actually havce to think that an RO would DQ a shooter under the circumstances you describe.

Essentially you are saying that the course description is to be followed, ie., the start is unloaded gun on table and if the shooter were to out of habit on the Make ready command, actually load, you'd or someone you know, would DQ him. What about the commands as they are currently given, Load and Make Ready? Would you DQ the shooter because he loaded even though the COF says unloaded start? Or would you simply say, "Er, you might want to unload, its an unloaded start"?

This is a problem with too many rules, each rule becomes narrower and narrower and t

therefore subject to more circumvention by the DRLs amongst us.

I would have no problem asking the shooter to Make Ready as opposed to the current LAMR command, either as an alternate or as a new command.

My personal favortie however remains Stoke it, Stroke it, Flick it, Stick it. This of course applies only to a 1911 pattern gun.

Jim Norman

[jhgtyre]

Lets stay away from the "more rules are bad" philosophy and focus on the question. I would vote to leave the range commands as is primarily because, as Jim pointed out, our non-English speaking brethern are accustomed to them and a change might cause confusion. My secondary reason for leaving them as is based upon the "if it isn't broken don't fix it" philosophy. I cannot imagine an RO DQing someone in the fashion that sfinney describes but our current rules do work and if the shooter loads the gun inappropriatly the RO who just said "LAMR" can just as easily point out the correct starting condition of the weapon. JMTCW.

-ld

[sfinney]

"if the shooter were to out of habit on the Make ready command, actually load, you'd or someone you know, would DQ him. What about the commands as they are currently given, Load and Make Ready? Would you DQ the shooter because he loaded even though the COF says unloaded start? Or would you simply say, "Er, you might want to unload, its an unloaded start"?"

Jim,

I'd like to point out that I never said that I would DQ for someone for that.... I said I know ROs that probably would, and I refer to them as Range Nazis. I do not think that the situation as described would warrant anything like a DQ.

And as to what I'd do, under the command "Load and Make Ready" for an unloaded start, and the shooter inadvertantly loads, yes, I gently remind him its an unloaded start. After all, the command did say "load", so thats fine, right?

My only point being that if you have one Command for "Load and make Ready", and another just for "Make Ready" you've opened the door for small brained individuals to get very literal over the verbage of the second command, rather than the intent. A sad state indeed, I agree. But based on past experience, its maybe not an unreasonable assumption that some range nazis out there would jump on people for this subtle distinction.

I vote for leave the command as is, don't confuse it further.

But I'd have no objection to making just the one command for all situations be "Make Ready" - I just don't think there is a need for BOTH commands, as written. IMHO.

[schoonie]

Vince,

I favor the "Make Ready" command only. The split commands have merit by addressing a start position with a loaded or an unloaded gun but, as demonstrated by the previous posts, can lead to confusion, interpretation, etc... A single, all encompassing command that needs no interpretation or translation is the ticket, IMHO.

[Sterling White]

Gas em up cowboy! lol...j/k

[jhgtyre]

Gas em up cowboy! lol...j/k

Which would have to be followed by "Skin that smoke wagon!"

-ld

[ima45dv8]

I say leave it alone. The rulebooks, old and new, clearly define what should happen when the command "Load and Make Ready" is issued. That includes, "...prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing." [[8.3.1 in my new Green book]]

I'm more than willing to occasionally explain to the shooter on the line that the book actually says this, on the hope that maybe.....just maybe.....they will get so curious that they go home and read it for themselves.

[wide45]

I am not in favor of any change. The commands work pretty well as is.

If there must be a change, go with one new command, not a choice between two.

Better yet, eliminate the option of the unloaded start.

[Jim Norman]

No unloaded starts? Why?

The unloaded start is a valid start position. You may say that it is not a "shooting Problem", but then if you want to go to the extreme, anything other than Bullseye is not a shooting problem. We move, we draw, we run, we shoot in odd positions, so why should we eliminate this start?

Jim

[38supPat]

There are ttwo courtesy calls often given. Range is (or is going) Hot! prior to the "Offical" start of the COF and "Do you understand the COF?"

Jim

Both of these 'courtesy calls' should not be used. The first "The range is hot" is incorrect, the range is always hot, nothing changes because the shooter is at the line. Otherwise basic safety is being ignored prior to the shooter entering the start box?

"Do you understand the course of fire" should also not be used. What happens to the one shooter who doesn't get asked that question? Does he now get a reshoot? You asked everyone else. He has grounds now.

RO's should not invent new range commands outside of the ones written in the rule book.

[mcoliver]

I'm all for the additional change.

I was a tyro once about to start a stage with an unloaded start. LAMR was given and I gave the RO a confused look; "Why load?" Unfortunately, he was busy with something and didn't notice me. So I loaded anyway. Got my very first PE.

[Jim Norman]

There are ttwo courtesy calls often given. Range is (or is going) Hot! prior to the "Offical" start of the COF and "Do you understand the COF?"

Jim

Both of these 'courtesy calls' should not be used. The first "The range is hot" is incorrect, the range is always hot, nothing changes because the shooter is at the line. Otherwise basic safety is being ignored prior to the shooter entering the start box?

"Do you understand the course of fire" should also not be used. What happens to the one shooter who doesn't get asked that question? Does he now get a reshoot? You asked everyone else. He has grounds now.

RO's should not invent new range commands outside of the ones written in the rule book.

Pat, with all due respect;

The reason we call out that the range is hot is to let everyone be sure that their ear protection is back in place. Quite often during the scoring and pasting phase people pull their plugs so they can hear. It alos doesn't hurt to give that final call before throwing lead downrange that that is what is about to happen.

Asking a shooter if he understand the COF, particularly a new shooter is just common courtesy. Sorry, but I will continue to do both. THey are not commands by the way. Just courtesy calls.

Jim