kevin c Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Another courtesy call: "Clear the range, please" - for those lingering down range, such as the scorekeeper signing off the last shooter, (both of whom should know better, but they're there forward of the start position more often than not), tapers, steel setters and brass pickers, especially the last, who haven't quite finished up. 'Course, "Are you ready? Stand by..." will definitely get them moving... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 You should see the reaction of the tea-party goes down range if you let the timer beep..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 I'm with Pat. I'm not big on the "extras". Before I give any commands, I'll take a cursory look around to see if the peanut gallery has their eyes and ears on (if not I won't start the shooter). Then, I'll give a nice LOUD LAMR command...which signals more than just the shooter that the stage is under way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 opps...we are drifting... Back to Vince's question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grassy knoll Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 I don't like having to add more to the rule book but we did have a stage last month where the firearm start position was unloaded on the table with mags in your pouches, when I was ROing I asked the shooter to draw and place the unloaded firearm on the table which was not LAMR but something that I was making up on the spot, would "Make Ready" help this situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg G Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 On reflection and considering that the start position is listed in the stage description and should be mentioned in the briefing it seems dedundant to ask a shooter to load and make ready. If the RO for example instructs the shooter by saying "competitor make ready" and the start position is unloaded on a table or loaded and holstered or unloaded there should be no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 20, 2004 Author Share Posted October 20, 2004 I don't like having to add more to the rule book but we did have a stage last month where the firearm start position was unloaded on the table with mags in your pouches, when I was ROing I asked the shooter to draw and place the unloaded firearm on the table which was not LAMR but something that I was making up on the spot, would "Make Ready" help this situation? Yes, I think so. The existing "LAMR" range command already explains that the competitor should "prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing", but it's been my experience that when the words "Load And" are stated, many competitors instinctively insert a magazine and chamber a round, regardless of the required gun ready condition, so the RO either needs to stop them mid-stream, or unload them and start again. As others have stated here, "Make Ready" is already used fairly regularly around the world (and I myself am guilty), so my intention is simply to formalise this as an authorised range command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Do we now need to state that it is/is not a DQ'able offence to actually chamber a round and remove it again on an empty gun start after the make ready command? Sorry, must ask..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I'm not completely sure about this... Common sense would dictate that you shouldn't be DQed if you chamber a round when making ready for an unloaded start (but at this point, inserting a mag for an unloaded start would have the same consequences too), and then rectify the situation to comply with starting position. OTOH, according to rule 10.5.13 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. A loaded firearm is defined as a firearm having a live round in the chamber or having a live round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. it seems a DQ is mandatory in that case, since the RO didn't specifically order to "load". I guess I'd be inclined to apply common sense, but it might be in contrast with the rules taken by the word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 We would DQ a shooter (for a loaded gun) after the COF has started?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 The existing "LAMR" range command already explains that the competitor should "prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing", but it's been my experience that when the words "Load And" are stated, many competitors instinctively insert a magazine and chamber a round, regardless of the required gun ready condition, so the RO either needs to stop them mid-stream, or unload them and start again. Vince, I can pretty much guarantee that no matter what the commands are, I'll be one of those people trying to stuff a mag in the gun --- because it's what I'm used to doing...... .....and I'm too old to change..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Flex, as I said, I'd be inclined to use common sense, but (IPSC) rule 10.3.15 is quite clear, and doesn't make any distinction between before and after a COF has started...if you're not specifically ordered to have a loaded gun, you're violating rule 10.3.15. What I'd expect is someone more knowledgeable of me on the rulebook will point out a rule that prevents this DQ situation, because at the moment I can't find any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I don't have the book with me, but isn't there a rule that says the CoF has started on the beep of the timer? ...which then makes it OK to load and shoot (on not so common sence)...this would eliminate Flex's Q...now what before the beep??? After some thought, " Prepare yourself and your gun according to stage briefing and requirements" (Calling Vince for clean-up and elegance ) would cover it??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I don't have the book with me, but isn't there a rule that says the CoF has started on the beep of the timer? Nope. 8.3.1 "Load And Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire". <snip> The COF starts with LAMR command. Then, the competitor's attempt at COF starts with beep: 8.3.4 "Start Signal" – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. <snip> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Thanx Sky...so same problem x2 senarios.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustralianMadDog Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Vince, The LAMR is a reflection of the military heritage of our founder LTC Cooper. Any US serviceman (serviceperson?) will tell you that the command "load" is the cue to take the pistol from condition 4 to condition 3, ie stick in a magazine. The command "make ready" is the instruction to take the pistol from condition 3 to condition 1, ie rack the slide and apply the safety. The commands (so I'm told) are usually given together as "load and make ready". (Check out the USMC pistol publication here https://www.doctrine.usmc.mil/signpubs/r301b.pdf ) So what? Well, instead of changing the range commands, perhaps we should use the range commands correctly. If you want the competitor to start with an unloaded pistol, then don't give the command "load". If you want the competitor to start with a magazine in the pistol, but an empty chamber, then don't give the command "make ready", just say "load". This won't work for a revolver, but that's a different issue entirely.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 If you change 8.3.1, then you have to change 10.5.13. ...cause, if I have to DQ Nik (or anybody else) for loading their gun...well, I'd have to dig out my voo-doo dolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 If you change 8.3.1, then you have to change 10.5.13....cause, if I have to DQ Nik (or anybody else) for loading their gun...well, I'd have to dig out my voo-doo dolls. Just make sure you're not standing right next to me when you DQ me ---- cause when I fall over from shock, you don't want to be my cushion...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 If you change 8.3.1, then you have to change 10.5.13. Actually, I'm pretty sure you can cover it with an exemption inserted into 8.3.1, as in "If a competitor loads the gun when told to Make Ready, the RO will have the competitor unload and show clear before placing the gun in the required start position. In this instance the provisions of 10.5.13 will not apply...." or something to that effect that the rule guys can come up with.... But I'm still not convinced that inserting an optional start command is necessary or desirable...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 20, 2004 Author Share Posted October 20, 2004 Hi guys, Inserting a loaded magazine in the gun and/or chambering a round, contrary to the required gun ready condition, after the Rule 8.3.1 range command has been given by the RO, is not grounds for a match DQ under Rule 10.5.13, and my proposal for an additional range command doesn't change anything in that respect. If that were the case, then a competitor who inserted a loaded magazine today with the current "LAMR" command, contrary to the required gun ready condition, would also be subject to a match DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Vince, You might need to re-read some of what has been posted. I don't think anybody was saying that putting the gun in the wrong "ready condition" was the grounds for a DQ. (which is what you are talking about, right?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Vince,You might need to re-read some of what has been posted. I don't think anybody was saying that putting the gun in the wrong "ready condition" was the grounds for a DQ. (which is what you are talking about, right?) Flex$, See the start of that particular concern on page 1 of the thread, sfinney's post at the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 OK...I think there is some confusion... Let me see if I can get on the same page as Darth and Skywalker.. Inserting a loaded magazine in the gun and/or chambering a round, contrary to the required gun ready condition, after the Rule 8.3.1 range command has been given by the RO, is not grounds for a match DQ under Rule 10.5.13 Right. Because the current 8.3.1 actually command the shooter to LOAD And Make Ready. Right? ...my proposal for an additional range command doesn't change anything in that respect. I think Skywalker is saying that it does. That, if you change it to just Make Ready, you have removed the command to load. Thus, if a shooter mistakenly loads (for an unloaded start) after getting the command that starts the COF ("make ready")...s/he may be DQ'ed under 10.5.13 [edit: OK...you are saying "an additional" range command...I don't think others are looking at that. They are just looking at a single command..."Make Ready"?] If that were the case, then a competitor who inserted a loaded magazine today with the current "LAMR" command, contrary to the required gun ready condition, would also be subject to a match DQ. Naaaahh...the cureent 8.3.1 actually tells the shooter to LOAD. OK...are we all on the same page? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 21, 2004 Author Share Posted October 21, 2004 OK...are we all on the same page? Not quite, Kimbo-sabi. TODAY: If the COF requires an unloaded (empty chamber, empty magwell) start, and the existing command "LAMR" is given, we don't DQ a competitor for inserting a magazine, right? We just correct him by either stopping him mid-stream or by unloading him and starting again. NEXT YEAR?: If the COF requires an unloaded (empty chamber, empty magwell) start, and the optional command "MR" is given, why would we suddenly start DQing competitors for inserting a magazine? The thrust & intent of Rule 10.5.13 is to DQ competitors who insert a loaded mag into their gun without the express permission of an RO, regardless of the nature or wording of the command. The thrust of my proposal to have an optional "MR" command is not to give so-called "Range Nazis" another opportunity to be assholes. I believe that when given a shorter "Make Ready" command, most competitors would immediately note the absence of the words "Load And" and they'd understand that this is a friendly reminder that an unloaded gun ready condition is required. Of course if they still instinctively and out of habit insert a mag (Hi Nik!), there's no need to get nasty, because the competitor is responding to a command from the RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryDGeek Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Of course if they still instinctively and out of habit insert a mag (Hi Nik!), there's no need to get nasty, because the competitor is responding to a command from the RO. Dang! I agree with you, Vinny. (I thought that worthy of comment.) Jerry the Geek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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