Draft rule book is posted

[Chuck D]

Lower power factor in ESP was a typo. I meant to type a lower power factor in ESR.

...and YES I AM SERIOUS about the rest of my post.

[srf]

IDPA's core value: defensive pistol discipline...

I've talked to several armed professionals that say not so much,

And...

No gun mounted lights, no lasers, no slide mounted red dots: These technologies are the future of defensive pistol discipline and you can't argue that these technologies are even cutting edge as they've all been around for some time. Technology marches on and interested spectators and historians know that the victors of wars (and by extention, self-defense encounters) possess the best technology.

[tiger49931]

I like the rule book only real changes i would have liked to see is.

1 point = 1 second

CDP = anything that can make power factor 165,000

Its their game I'm just playing it. but all and all it works for me...

[ktm300]

I guess with the name "Tiger Teams" and descriptions like "rewrite" I expected a lot more change.

They did fix some obvious errors but the basics are still the same.

To get with the times .40 in CDP would have allowed the multitude of USPSA SS shooters that run .40 major to shoot in CDP. Now they would have to buy a new gun to shoot CDP or shoot their gun in ESP at a reduced power. Seems kind of silly to me. .40 in general is a non starter in IDPA, might as well shoot 9mm. Seeing that .40 is a very popular self defense and LEO load that seems kind of silly for a game that says it's about self defense to ignore it.

[JohnRodriguez]

well, here is my .02.

They should have just done away with walls and save the time trying to explain to us why we can't reload behind cover, when the cover to 8' long. just put a barricade where ever you want a reload completed. walls are bad, and the should be done away with.

every person who purchased a 7 or 8 shot revo should return them to their dealer because IDPA said that they are not real guns and should not be used for protection and their is no place for them in real life.

sorry for the real life jib.

CDP should be .40 cal and above. this is a no brainer

If all the members of IDPA who don't like what they are seeing in the possible new rule book. then we sould support the local club level matches, because the ones i shoot at don't support what they are seeing in proposed rule changes, and not renew our memberships. Maybe IDPA HQ will realize that a hit in membership, means that members do have a say so in rule book changes

[Chuck D]

IDPA's core value: defensive pistol discipline...

I've talked to several armed professionals that say not so much,

And...

No gun mounted lights, no lasers, no slide mounted red dots: These technologies are the future of defensive pistol discipline and you can't argue that these technologies are even cutting edge as they've all been around for some time. Technology marches on and interested spectators and historians know that the victors of wars (and by extention, self-defense encounters) possess the best technology.

...we can go back and forth all day long over what constitutes "defensive pistol discipline." Working in LE I can state that it's much closer than other "practical pistol" sports and that's what's important to me. The new rulebook continues that perspective and that's what makes it a success in my opinion.

[Chuck D]

IDPA's core value: defensive pistol discipline...

I've talked to several armed professionals that say not so much,

And...

No gun mounted lights, no lasers, no slide mounted red dots: These technologies are the future of defensive pistol discipline and you can't argue that these technologies are even cutting edge as they've all been around for some time. Technology marches on and interested spectators and historians know that the victors of wars (and by extention, self-defense encounters) possess the best technology.

Yes, it's true that all of the above is on the cutting edge of technology and yes you can make a successful argument for weapons mounted illumination devices but the possibility of a weapons mounted light on a civilian CCW concealed carry weapon is slim at best. Switch to LE Officers, the chances are even slimmer. We are issued lights and they are not mounted on the weapon and when deployed have to be installed on the weapon (the light is carried in a pouch on the duty belt).

Fact is CCW holders do not utilize the aforementioned technology in significant numbers. Just because S&W mounts a reflex optic on an M&P pistol does not mean it should be a legal option for IDPA. The overwhelming majority carry pistols with iron sights of varying designs and manufacturers.

[Chuck D]

well, here is my .02.

They should have just done away with walls and save the time trying to explain to us why we can't reload behind cover, when the cover to 8' long. just put a barricade where ever you want a reload completed. walls are bad, and the should be done away with.

every person who purchased a 7 or 8 shot revo should return them to their dealer because IDPA said that they are not real guns and should not be used for protection and their is no place for them in real life.

sorry for the real life jib.

CDP should be .40 cal and above. this is a no brainer

If all the members of IDPA who don't like what they are seeing in the possible new rule book. then we sould support the local club level matches, because the ones i shoot at don't support what they are seeing in proposed rule changes, and not renew our memberships. Maybe IDPA HQ will realize that a hit in membership, means that members do have a say so in rule book changes

The revolver issue is a simple one to understand. The 6 shot revolver is most prevelent and allowing 7 or 8 shot revolvers load more than 6 rounds negates the most popular revolvers in use today...the 6 shot 38/357 and 6 shot 45acp.

Secondly CPD has been designed to be a 45acp division. Sorry, 40/10mm have been excluded. This is the "no brainer" of the issue. I understand 40 can and does make major, that's not the issue.

IDPA members will no doubt embrace the new rules...to state otherwise without any factual research isn't warranted. If you shoot "outlaw IDPA" then that's you're choice. Just don't use IDPA targets, call what you're doing IDPA, and use the rules you agree with and ignore the ones you don't.

[ktm300]

Secondly CPD has been designed to be a 45acp division. Sorry, 40/10mm have been excluded. This is the "no brainer" of the issue. I understand 40 can and does make major, that's not the issue.

It may be a .45acp division but why? Sorry but "that's the way we have always done it" is a terrible excuse for doing something. I agree this was a "no brainer" change they dropped the ball on.

[Chuck D]

i

Secondly CPD has been designed to be a 45acp division. Sorry, 40/10mm have been excluded. This is the "no brainer" of the issue. I understand 40 can and does make major, that's not the issue.

It may be a .45acp division but why? Sorry but "that's the way we have always done it" is a terrible excuse for doing something. I agree this was a "no brainer" change they dropped the ball on.

It is the division where the founders of IDPA honored the caliber that started what we now know as practical pistol competition...the 45acp. I imagine that is why.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Chuck D

[ktm300]

i

Secondly CPD has been designed to be a 45acp division. Sorry, 40/10mm have been excluded. This is the "no brainer" of the issue. I understand 40 can and does make major, that's not the issue.

It may be a .45acp division but why? Sorry but "that's the way we have always done it" is a terrible excuse for doing something. I agree this was a "no brainer" change they dropped the ball on.

It is the division where the founders of IDPA honored the caliber that started what we now know as practical pistol competition...the 45acp. I imagine that is why.

If they wanted to honor the 1911 I would get that but it's trying to honor the .45acp but letting plastic guns with tapered mags run in the division. Seems like the founders were more likely to honor a platform than a cartridge if that was the reason.

Like I said, "that's the way we always did it" is not a good reason to keep doing it. .40 = less expensive to shoot, brass is simple to find, simple to make major. For that matter Winchester White Box makes major out of my .40 1911.

For me it is just that I would like to be able to shoot my gun in an 8 round IDPA division and an 8 round USPSA division without having to run .45. Seems reasonable but I guess "that's the way we have always done it" is the order of the day in IDPA.

[BillR1]

I agree that CDP should stay at .45 only. No one is stopping you from shooting that .40 in ESP if you wanted. It can't be at THAT much of a disadvantage. I also shoot in ESP with a gun that is not ideal for the division. My 31oz (as equipped) M&P is a far cry from a 42oz 9mm 1911. You can't make a division for everyone. The way it's separated now makes sense, so I'll play wherever I can fit in.

[Chuck D]

i

Secondly CPD has been designed to be a 45acp division. Sorry, 40/10mm have been excluded. This is the "no brainer" of the issue. I understand 40 can and does make major, that's not the issue.

It may be a .45acp division but why? Sorry but "that's the way we have always done it" is a terrible excuse for doing something. I agree this was a "no brainer" change they dropped the ball on.

It is the division where the founders of IDPA honored the caliber that started what we now know as practical pistol competition...the 45acp. I imagine that is why.

If they wanted to honor the 1911 I would get that but it's trying to honor the .45acp but letting plastic guns with tapered mags run in the division. Seems like the founders were more likely to honor a platform than a cartridge if that was the reason.

Like I said, "that's the way we always did it" is not a good reason to keep doing it. .40 = less expensive to shoot, brass is simple to find, simple to make major. For that matter Winchester White Box makes major out of my .40 1911.

For me it is just that I would like to be able to shoot my gun in an 8 round IDPA division and an 8 round USPSA division without having to run .45. Seems reasonable but I guess "that's the way we have always done it" is the order of the day in IDPA.

" That's the way we've always did it (or done it) was never stated by me or IDPA. Where you get that reasoning is beyond me but it isn't applicable or a factual statement so please stop claiming that is a valid defense for not allowing 40 caliber in CDP.

Yes...40 caliber is cheaper brass bullet and loaded ammo wise. Cheap isn't a division criteria. If you REALLY want a cost effective option try SSP or ESP where downloaded 40 caliber guns can certainly compete.

Secondly...allowing "plastic guns with tapered mags" in CDP as long as they are 45acp caliber doesn't diminish the division. I use a G21 Glock in CDP.

I understand what you'd like to do. The rules say you can't. Sorry about that.

Lastly...they are NOT honoring a platform (the 1911 in particular)...they've developed a stand alone division for 45acp caliber pistols.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Chuck D

[ktm300]

From the rulebook:

"With that in mind, and

keeping the shooters' best interests in mind, IDPA's founders established equipment requirements that remain

based on commonly available firearms and gear allowing individuals the opportunity to compete with minimal

investment."

Again from the rulebook:

"Provide separate divisions for equipment and classifications for shooters, such that firearms with similar

characteristics are grouped together "

Basing a division on the cartridge seems to go against what the rule book says they are going to do.

I understand keeping 9mm out of a high power division as it was never meant to run that hard. .40 and 10mm both are well within spec at 165000.

I just don't understand how a game based around self defense ignores one of the most popular modern self defense cartridges. Yes you can shoot it in ESP but you get no credit for the higher power factor so most people shoot powder puff loads. Should I download my carry .40 so I can shoot a game that is about self defense? Seems pretty counter productive.

By the way:

"CPD has been designed to be a 45acp division" = "That's the way we have always done it"

[jmorris]

It may be a .45acp division but why? Sorry but "that's the way we have always done it" is a terrible excuse for doing something. I agree this was a "no brainer" change they dropped the ball on.

FWIW CDP hasn't "always" been 45 acp only. Around 2001 they made it 45 acp only, around the same time they made SSR barrels 4" max instead of 5".

Edited May 12, 2013 by jmorris

[BillR1]

From the rulebook:"With that in mind, andkeeping the shooters' best interests in mind, IDPA's founders established equipment requirements that remainbased on commonly available firearms and gear allowing individuals the opportunity to compete with minimalinvestment."Again from the rulebook:"Provide separate divisions for equipment and classifications for shooters, such that firearms with similarcharacteristics are grouped together "Basing a division on the cartridge seems to go against what the rule book says they are going to do.I understand keeping 9mm out of a high power division as it was never meant to run that hard. .40 and 10mm both are well within spec at 165000.I just don't understand how a game based around self defense ignores one of the most popular modern self defense cartridges. Yes you can shoot it in ESP but you get no credit for the higher power factor so most people shoot powder puff loads. Should I download my carry .40 so I can shoot a game that is about self defense? Seems pretty counter productive.By the way:"CPD has been designed to be a 45acp division" = "That's the way we have always done it"

If you're in the game to help with self-defense skills, then shoot it at full power. If you want to compete in the game, then download it. Pretty simple! My carry gun is a 9mm, and I'm quite sure my CorBons are a bit more than 125000. I download it for the game...no big deal IMO.

Also, how/why would you stop at .40/10mm? What about 357SIG? 38 Super? Both of those can make 165000 easily...

Edited May 12, 2013 by BillR1

[lugnut]

Fault lines would work just fine... behind cover is behind cover. In the "real world", if you fling two shots at a threat from behind cover, are you just gonna assume he's not a threat anymore and expose your self to him? No, you're gonna stay behind cover and engage the other targets as best you can. At least I hope you are.

Huh???? This make no sense at all based on how IDPA requires the use of cover. imagine shooting from the right edge of a wall. One target is down range 10 yards straight from the wall... but the next is downrange 10 yards but but about 15 feet to the left. Your definition of cover has absolutely changed.

[GmanCdp]

Never mind..

Edited May 12, 2013 by GmanCdp

[Chuck D]

From the rulebook:

"With that in mind, and

keeping the shooters' best interests in mind, IDPA's founders established equipment requirements that remain

based on commonly available firearms and gear allowing individuals the opportunity to compete with minimal

investment."

Again from the rulebook:

"Provide separate divisions for equipment and classifications for shooters, such that firearms with similar

characteristics are grouped together "

Basing a division on the cartridge seems to go against what the rule book says they are going to do.

I understand keeping 9mm out of a high power division as it was never meant to run that hard. .40 and 10mm both are well within spec at 165000.

I just don't understand how a game based around self defense ignores one of the most popular modern self defense cartridges. Yes you can shoot it in ESP but you get no credit for the higher power factor so most people shoot powder puff loads. Should I download my carry .40 so I can shoot a game that is about self defense? Seems pretty counter productive.

By the way:

"CPD has been designed to be a 45acp division" = "That's the way we have always done it"

There is no major/minor in IDPA. You either make the minimum power factor or you go home so there is no "credit" to be had.

[Chuck D]

From the rulebook:

"With that in mind, and

keeping the shooters' best interests in mind, IDPA's founders established equipment requirements that remain

based on commonly available firearms and gear allowing individuals the opportunity to compete with minimal

investment."

Again from the rulebook:

"Provide separate divisions for equipment and classifications for shooters, such that firearms with similar

characteristics are grouped together "

Basing a division on the cartridge seems to go against what the rule book says they are going to do.

I understand keeping 9mm out of a high power division as it was never meant to run that hard. .40 and 10mm both are well within spec at 165000.

I just don't understand how a game based around self defense ignores one of the most popular modern self defense cartridges. Yes you can shoot it in ESP but you get no credit for the higher power factor so most people shoot powder puff loads. Should I download my carry .40 so I can shoot a game that is about self defense? Seems pretty counter productive.

By the way:

"CPD has been designed to be a 45acp division" = "That's the way we have always done it"

As I stated earlier (to no avail) there has never been and there certainly isn't a "this is how we've always done it" policy or mentality here so please stop misrepresenting the issue to suit your personal agenda. It's an affront to the hard work put in by a VOLUNTEER work force who redesigned the current rulebook and to the organizations and its membership by insinuating that the criteria of 45acp only in CDP was instituted for questionable purposes.

As was correctly stated in another post....CDP wasn't always a 45acp only Division. the decision was made to change it around 2001-2002. Long enough time for competitors to adapt to the change.

[thermobollocks]

The new draft rulebook is 98%on target. I agree with reloading an empty firearm before advancing, eliminating the Texas star and plate racks (fun targets to shoot but possess no practical value), the inclusion of muzzle safe zones, and CDP remaining a 45acp only division.

Not practical? Static paper is impractical. Texas stars give you motion and a degree of unpredictability.

Muzzle safe zones have always been there, but they've always (and continue to be) subject to the constraints of the course of fire, dictated by the match director.

Reloading an empty firearm before advancing is great, however not being able to "advance" from a position of cover while reloading is something else.

The claim that full-length dust covers are "competition-only" is hilarious, same for the Hogue "Big Butt" grips. The old rulebook decided that revolvers could have any kind of grips the shooter wants subject to weight constraints, but then the Hogues got too popular, so now they're "competition-only."

Beyond that, one of the big holes that I see in the new rulebook is that a discharge after "if you are finished, unload and show clear" is a DQ, not just a DQ after "pull the trigger" (S1.3). "If you are finished" is meant to be a question.

In short, after eight years free from changes, and given the complaints of the people I shoot with and talk to, I'm severely underwhelmed.

[Chuck D]

The new draft rulebook is 98%on target. I agree with reloading an empty firearm before advancing, eliminating the Texas star and plate racks (fun targets to shoot but possess no practical value), the inclusion of muzzle safe zones, and CDP remaining a 45acp only division.

Not practical? Static paper is impractical. Texas stars give you motion and a degree of unpredictability.

Muzzle safe zones have always been there, but they've always (and continue to be) subject to the constraints of the course of fire, dictated by the match director.

Reloading an empty firearm before advancing is great, however not being able to "advance" from a position of cover while reloading is something else.

The claim that full-length dust covers are "competition-only" is hilarious, same for the Hogue "Big Butt" grips. The old rulebook decided that revolvers could have any kind of grips the shooter wants subject to weight constraints, but then the Hogues got too popular, so now they're "competition-only."

Beyond that, one of the big holes that I see in the new rulebook is that a discharge after "if you are finished, unload and show clear" is a DQ, not just a DQ after "pull the trigger" (S1.3). "If you are finished" is meant to be a question.

In short, after eight years free from changes, and given the complaints of the people I shoot with and talk to, I'm severely underwhelmed.

Texas Stars are fun targets..no question about it but serve no practical purpose. "Bad Guys" do not have 5 heads and rotate in a circle when attacking...

Static paper is impractical ? Every LE or civilian involved shooting has been committed by "moving" suspects ?

If full length dust cover guns didn't provide an advantage, we'd NEVER see one on a USPSA/IPSC Limited/Standard Division gun now would we...

If you carry a revolver with Hogue "big butt" grips fine...I don't see very many revo guys carrying with 'em. Kinda goes along with the long/full dust cover thing....serves a competitive advantage.

You have a point with the "if you are finished" thing...I just disagree with you.

The cover/reload thing is painfully easy to understand...no advancing from positions of cover, while still behind cover, with an empty gun. Range conditions are predictable, in the real world conditions are subject to change.

We agree to disagree..

[ktm300]

As I stated earlier (to no avail) there has never been and there certainly isn't a "this is how we've always done it" policy or mentality here so please stop misrepresenting the issue to suit your personal agenda.

We can agree to disagree on that.

I still don't have an answer to the reason there is a dedicated .45acp division. Obviously the argument that the founders wanted was not it as it did not start as .45acp only.

[ktm300]

In short, after eight years free from changes, and given the complaints of the people I shoot with and talk to, I'm severely underwhelmed.

Now there is something I can agree with.

[srf]

IDPA's core value: defensive pistol discipline...

I've talked to several armed professionals that say not so much,

And...

No gun mounted lights, no lasers, no slide mounted red dots: These technologies are the future of defensive pistol discipline and you can't argue that these technologies are even cutting edge as they've all been around for some time. Technology marches on and interested spectators and historians know that the victors of wars (and by extention, self-defense encounters) possess the best technology.

Yes, it's true that all of the above is on the cutting edge of technology and yes you can make a successful argument for weapons mounted illumination devices but the possibility of a weapons mounted light on a civilian CCW concealed carry weapon is slim at best. Switch to LE Officers, the chances are even slimmer. We are issued lights and they are not mounted on the weapon and when deployed have to be installed on the weapon (the light is carried in a pouch on the duty belt).

Fact is CCW holders do not utilize the aforementioned technology in significant numbers. Just because S&W mounts a reflex optic on an M&P pistol does not mean it should be a legal option for IDPA. The overwhelming majority carry pistols with iron sights of varying designs and manufacturers.

Why not allow these more 'modern' devices a place in IDPA? They would be competing only against one another.