Draft rule book is posted

[BillR1]

If your not competitive in ESP, most likely it's not because of 40 PF

So yes it is the Indian not the arrow unless the two Indians are close in skill. Then a little less recoil on the arrow will help the lower power factor Indian.

And you can HAVE that "little less recoil" should you choose to...simply reload.

Plus there are a significant number of commercial reloading companies that will sell you 40 caliber ammo that has been designed for 130-135 power factor.

Exactly!! No one said you have to shoot full-power ammo even if you choose not to reload. If you want to shoot the .40 and compete, there are options.

[Racinready300ex]

If your not competitive in ESP, most likely it's not because of 40 PF

So yes it is the Indian not the arrow unless the two Indians are close in skill. Then a little less recoil on the arrow will help the lower power factor Indian.

Maybe. But I watched a video of Jerry M the other day shooting a Bill Drill with a snub nosed revolver. 3 shots light 38 special target loads and 3 shot full power .357. The difference is his splits was .01 at the most. They were all in the .16 -.17 range I think.

He showed that if you know what you are doing recoil makes little difference. And I think most people agree that fast splits are not the key to winning.

I say shoot you 40 is ESP and SSP and quit bitching, it's not going to change no sense in fighting over it anyway.

[Fordfan485]

If your not competitive in ESP, most likely it's not because of 40 PF

So yes it is the Indian not the arrow unless the two Indians are close in skill. Then a little less recoil on the arrow will help the lower power factor Indian.

Maybe. But I watched a video of Jerry M the other day shooting a Bill Drill with a snub nosed revolver. 3 shots light 38 special target loads and 3 shot full power .357. The difference is his splits was .01 at the most. They were all in the .16 -.17 range I think.

He showed that if you know what you are doing recoil makes little difference. And I think most people agree that fast splits are not the key to winning.

I say shoot you 40 is ESP and SSP and quit bitching, it's not going to change no sense in fighting over it anyway.

So by your logic I will have only a .01 split between the two. Come on man that guy is a proffesional shooter, It might not make a difference to some of you that are master and up but if you are marksman or sharpshooter I beg to differ.

[ktm300]

If your not competitive in ESP, most likely it's not because of 40 PF

So yes it is the Indian not the arrow unless the two Indians are close in skill. Then a little less recoil on the arrow will help the lower power factor Indian.

Maybe. But I watched a video of Jerry M the other day shooting a Bill Drill with a snub nosed revolver. 3 shots light 38 special target loads and 3 shot full power .357. The difference is his splits was .01 at the most. They were all in the .16 -.17 range I think.

He showed that if you know what you are doing recoil makes little difference. And I think most people agree that fast splits are not the key to winning.

I say shoot you 40 is ESP and SSP and quit bitching, it's not going to change no sense in fighting over it anyway.

So if power makes no difference shouldn't I be able to shoot ESP with my 1911 in .22? I practice with it and I know I am faster with it than the .40. It sure is simpler to track the sights on the .22 than the .40. Edited June 2, 2013 by ktm300

[Racinready300ex]

If your not competitive in ESP, most likely it's not because of 40 PF

So yes it is the Indian not the arrow unless the two Indians are close in skill. Then a little less recoil on the arrow will help the lower power factor Indian.

Maybe. But I watched a video of Jerry M the other day shooting a Bill Drill with a snub nosed revolver. 3 shots light 38 special target loads and 3 shot full power .357. The difference is his splits was .01 at the most. They were all in the .16 -.17 range I think.

He showed that if you know what you are doing recoil makes little difference. And I think most people agree that fast splits are not the key to winning.

I say shoot you 40 is ESP and SSP and quit bitching, it's not going to change no sense in fighting over it anyway.

So by your logic I will have only a .01 split between the two. Come on man that guy is a proffesional shooter, It might not make a difference to some of you that are master and up but if you are marksman or sharpshooter I beg to differ.

Well in theory if your a marksmen and it makes that much of a difference you'll make sharpshooter wont you? If you don't, and your a MM you will be shooing against MM. Doesn't matter what there recoil is, they shoot at a similar pace to you or they would be classified higher.

Very few people shoot 40's at the clubs I go to, so I don't know where this notion of most popular comes from. But, There is one guy at our club with a 40 that I talked to about his loads. He said he loaded down to 134-140 pf and didn't like it. He found he could shoot better with the full power 40's. So he's reloading to shoot 180 pf in ssp. He's a sharpshooter.

[ktm300]

We keep getting way off the point. The point is that the divisions make no sense because of some preconceived idea that the only valid high power factor load is .45 acp.

The idea that the NC highway patrol is shooting 357 sig which is a very good self defense load and they can't come shoot their service pistol in a high power division in IDPA is ludicrous.

40 S&W is a valid high power self defense load, again no division to shoot it.

It doesn't matter that you can shoot it in a low power factor division. The fact is that there are several good high power self defense loads that have no logical home in IDPA.

That is logic, the rules seem to be based in "feelings" or "bias", or both.

[BillR1]

40 S&W is a valid high power self defense load, again no division to shoot it.It doesn't matter that you can shoot it in a low power factor division.

Why doesn't it matter? People can and DO shoot .40s successfully in SSP or ESP. If you want to shoot that caliber, there are several options that we've discussed. There IS commercially available .40 ammo for 135PF if you feel you can't compete with store-bought ammo. I'm not sure you're getting much support for wanting to shoot WalMart ammo AND be able to choose your own class.

[jmorris]

My head hurts.

I think they should make all divisions 45 acp with the exception of SSR where you have to shoot the 45 auto rim. Load it minor in double stacks for SSP, ESP also minor for SSR.

It would make for a shorter bitch and whine thread, 308 wacks, so far, on a horse that's not moving...

Edited June 2, 2013 by jmorris

[ktm300]

40 S&W is a valid high power self defense load, again no division to shoot it.It doesn't matter that you can shoot it in a low power factor division.

Why doesn't it matter? People can and DO shoot .40s successfully in SSP or ESP. If you want to shoot that caliber, there are several options that we've discussed. There IS commercially available .40 ammo for 135PF if you feel you can't compete with store-bought ammo. I'm not sure you're getting much support for wanting to shoot WalMart ammo AND be able to choose your own class.

Logic

[bikerburgess]

Are you really against the idea of using handloads? IDPA specified the PF for the different divisions because they knew we'd be reloading. There's little reason in ANY division to shoot ammo that's significantly above the PF for that division unless you don't reload. If you want to shoot higher powered ammo for defensive practice, that's great. But don't expect to be given special rights or to be able to pick your own class simply because you CHOOSE to shoot high-powered ammo.

I believe the point is that since the .40 is the most popular defensive caliber, it doesn't make sense to have a wussy PF that requires folks to load down (and often modify the guns to cycle) in order to be competitive, and is also much wusslier than what they carry in real life (meow).

Just a point of view from my neck of the woods...no ill will intended.

In my county of residence, approximately 750,000 residents and consisting of a City PD, A County Sheriffs Dept. and 14 Town and Village Agencies.

The number of agencies using a 40 caliber weapon can be counted on one hand and you'd have a majority of your fingers left. These two agencies are Towns/Village Departments that acquired "hand-me-down" pistols from the County and City PD's . Everyone else went to either a Glock, A Sig Sauer, or S&W M-P in 45acp.

Obviously I am aware that this condition isn't the same in other jurisdictions but the blanket statement " 40 is the most popular caliber may not always be true dependent upon where you live. In the civilian market here.....the 9mm is still the most sold pistol caliber with the 45 not too far behind.

When it comes to calibers used in criminal activity...more people are "shot" with 22's, 32's and 9mm's then all other calibers combined. Being in LE myself...the stats are fairly easy to come by although I can not release specific data per my Departmental policy.

"Wussy" caliber or not...I wouldn't want to be shot by it. I was taught long ago and I believe it rings true to this day that shot placement is more important than operating a "hand cannon" and if you look at the reasonings behind the IDPA power factor floors you'd see this especially in ESP and SSR where a variety of pistol calibers (obviously 9mm or larger) can compete equally as long as the pistols meet the minimum power factor floor and are legal for the division. Same with SSR...you can use a 2.5 inch model 10 or a 4 inch 686SSR in the division w/o having to "hot rod" the 38 special cartridge or shoot 357 magnum loads from properly chambered revolvers.

your example of a 2.5" revolver making the power floor is misplaced, that would hold true for USPSA or IPSC, but in IDPA you only need to worry about your ammo making power factor in the MAXIMUM legal barrel length for your division.

Mike

[motosapiens]

If your not competitive in ESP, most likely it's not because of 40 PF

So yes it is the Indian not the arrow unless the two Indians are close in skill. Then a little less recoil on the arrow will help the lower power factor Indian.

Maybe. But I watched a video of Jerry M the other day shooting a Bill Drill with a snub nosed revolver. 3 shots light 38 special target loads and 3 shot full power .357. The difference is his splits was .01 at the most. They were all in the .16 -.17 range I think.

He showed that if you know what you are doing recoil makes little difference. And I think most people agree that fast splits are not the key to winning.

I say shoot you 40 is ESP and SSP and quit bitching, it's not going to change no sense in fighting over it anyway.

So by your logic I will have only a .01 split between the two. Come on man that guy is a proffesional shooter, It might not make a difference to some of you that are master and up but if you are marksman or sharpshooter I beg to differ.

He only said if you know what you're doing, it won't make a difference.

Oddly enough, I just switched from production to l10 for the rest of the year. Same gun, same rig, same high-C shooter, just a heavier load (168 pf vs 132pf for production). In my 2nd practice session, I was doing bill drills in the same time with major loads. I think the extra recoil hurts your accuracy more if you have poor technique or lose track of the sights, but it doesn't appear to change things significantly for a better shooter, or when you are doing things right.

[motosapiens]

If your not competitive in ESP, most likely it's not because of 40 PF

So yes it is the Indian not the arrow unless the two Indians are close in skill. Then a little less recoil on the arrow will help the lower power factor Indian.

And you can HAVE that "little less recoil" should you choose to...simply reload.

Plus there are a significant number of commercial reloading companies that will sell you 40 caliber ammo that has been designed for 130-135 power factor.

Exactly!! No one said you have to shoot full-power ammo even if you choose not to reload. If you want to shoot the .40 and compete, there are options.

Exactly. However, those options go entirely against the stated goals and principles of IDPA.

[dafdov368]

Plus there are a significant number of commercial reloading companies that will sell you 40 caliber ammo that has been designed for 130-135 power factor.

Basically the lowest powered ammo I've found from the large commercial reloaders was from cor-bon at 140 PF and that was at 45 bucks a box. Seems like this "significant number of commercial reloading companies" your talking about are more so small business' with a license to manufacture ammo like Atlanta Arms, or Load Houston. There's huge wait times (normally) for these companies and their pricing isn't anywhere close to Winchester white box ammo.

I'd be really interested in knowing where I can get some minor loaded 40's at a reasonable price.

[Chuck D]

Plus there are a significant number of commercial reloading companies that will sell you 40 caliber ammo that has been designed for 130-135 power factor.

Basically the lowest powered ammo I've found from the large commercial reloaders was from cor-bon at 140 PF and that was at 45 bucks a box. Seems like this "significant number of commercial reloading companies" your talking about are more so small business' with a license to manufacture ammo like Atlanta Arms, or Load Houston. There's huge wait times (normally) for these companies and their pricing isn't anywhere close to Winchester white box ammo.

I'd be really interested in knowing where I can get some minor loaded 40's at a reasonable price.

Here are a few options. They're out there, you just need to look.

1. Precision Delta

2. Atlanta Arms and Ammo

3. Universal Shooting Academy

4. DC Ammo

These are ammo companies that load 40 caliber to minor PF levels and are companies that know what IDPA/USPSA shooters need and want.

Good luck finding ammo from ANYONE that compares to Winchester white box. Pricing right now is skewed because of shortages.

Lets not apply the current ammo supply problems to the issue of 40 caliber in CDP as supply doesn't factor into the issue.

[Rob Tompkins]

Bottom line, what is logical and rational to one person is not necessarly logical and rational to another. As long as there are twice as many IDPA matches in the local area I'll shoot more IDPA than USPSA no matter the rules. I'll find a way to play the GAME as best as I can.

Please note, both IDPA and USPSA have protective Divisons. USPSA protects the 1911 in all cal's and IDPA protects the 45ACP in all guns. That is how it is and likely to stay as far as I can tell. It would be nice if IDPA just called it what it is, the 45ACP Division and stopped trying to make it a gun feature-driven divison when in fact ANY IDPA leagal gun can play as long as it is 45ACP - that truly is a 45ACP Divison.

Personally I'd like to see a way for like power factor guns compete together just becase that makes sense to me but I'll play by whatever the rules are. However, looking at how IDPA is setting classification times they don't think there is much performance difference between gun features OR power factors. Begs the question, why have Divisions? Just so we can have more winners? But I digress.

[BillR1]

Bottom line, what is logical and rational to one person is not necessarly logical and rational to another. As long as there are twice as many IDPA matches in the local area I'll shoot more IDPA than USPSA no matter the rules. I'll find a way to play the GAME as best as I can.

Please note, both IDPA and USPSA have protective Divisons. USPSA protects the 1911 in all cal's and IDPA protects the 45ACP in all guns. That is how it is and likely to stay as far as I can tell. It would be nice if IDPA just called it what it is, the 45ACP Division and stopped trying to make it a gun feature-driven divison when in fact ANY IDPA leagal gun can play as long as it is 45ACP - that truly is a 45ACP Divison.

Personally I'd like to see a way for like power factor guns compete together just becase that makes sense to me but I'll play by whatever the rules are. However, looking at how IDPA is setting classification times they don't think there is much performance difference between gun features OR power factors. Begs the question, why have Divisions? Just so we can have more winners? But I digress.

Great post...well said!

[ktm300]

However, looking at how IDPA is setting classification times they don't think there is much performance difference between gun features OR power factors. Begs the question, why have Divisions? Just so we can have more winners? But I digress.

Really good post!

Is it possible that the test is not very good? If there is one test and people can go shoot that test as often as they like they are going to get good at that one test and the times should be very close.

Here I go with a USPSA analogy so flame suit on. There are simple USPSA classifiers and there are hard ones. It is pretty simple to have a very good run on a simple classifier and get into higher numbers. It is pretty rare to have a run like that on one of the more complicated ones. The point is the harder the classifier, USPSA or IDPA the more it will separate the shooters and platforms. I was surprised the IDPA classifier did not get a face lift.

In either game you can game the classifier if you want to. Set up the IDPA classifier and shoot it until you are a ???? For USPSA go to a classifier match that publishes the stages and work on them before you go.

Both USPSA and IDPA have a way to bump people to the next higher class in matches. I think IDPA's is a little more forceful and that is good.

[Rob Tompkins]

Bottom line, what is logical and rational to one person is not necessarly logical and rational to another. As long as there are twice as many IDPA matches in the local area I'll shoot more IDPA than USPSA no matter the rules. I'll find a way to play the GAME as best as I can.

Please note, both IDPA and USPSA have protective Divisons. USPSA protects the 1911 in all cal's and IDPA protects the 45ACP in all guns. That is how it is and likely to stay as far as I can tell. It would be nice if IDPA just called it what it is, the 45ACP Division and stopped trying to make it a gun feature-driven divison when in fact ANY IDPA leagal gun can play as long as it is 45ACP - that truly is a 45ACP Divison.

Personally I'd like to see a way for like power factor guns compete together just becase that makes sense to me but I'll play by whatever the rules are. However, looking at how IDPA is setting classification times they don't think there is much performance difference between gun features OR power factors. Begs the question, why have Divisions? Just so we can have more winners? But I digress.

Great post...well said!

However, looking at how IDPA is setting classification times they don't think there is much performance difference between gun features OR power factors. Begs the question, why have Divisions? Just so we can have more winners? But I digress.

Really good post!

Is it possible that the test is not very good? If there is one test and people can go shoot that test as often as they like they are going to get good at that one test and the times should be very close.

Here I go with a USPSA analogy so flame suit on. There are simple USPSA classifiers and there are hard ones. It is pretty simple to have a very good run on a simple classifier and get into higher numbers. It is pretty rare to have a run like that on one of the more complicated ones. The point is the harder the classifier, USPSA or IDPA the more it will separate the shooters and platforms. I was surprised the IDPA classifier did not get a face lift.

In either game you can game the classifier if you want to. Set up the IDPA classifier and shoot it until you are a ???? For USPSA go to a classifier match that publishes the stages and work on them before you go.

Both USPSA and IDPA have a way to bump people to the next higher class in matches. I think IDPA's is a little more forceful and that is good.

Thanks guys!

I'm the MD for one of the local IDPA matches and I shoot USPSA 10-12 times a year. I've shot and seen many people shoot classifiers in both games. One measures the skill set in many different ways against the "best score on record" and one does is a single way against a "set standard". Both have good points but both are incomplete in the sense they don't fully represent what you see in a "typical" match but they both test basic and commonly used skills. As to "match bumps", yes both games have a way to do that and I've experienced both. I think the IDPA way is bit overly aggressive in that I've seen many lower skilled shooters get bumped just because they did a bit better and won but were still miles behind the next classification. I would like to see a requirement to have bested x% of the next classification up to be bumped.

[Chuck D]

If your not competitive in ESP, most likely it's not because of 40 PF

So yes it is the Indian not the arrow unless the two Indians are close in skill. Then a little less recoil on the arrow will help the lower power factor Indian.

Maybe. But I watched a video of Jerry M the other day shooting a Bill Drill with a snub nosed revolver. 3 shots light 38 special target loads and 3 shot full power .357. The difference is his splits was .01 at the most. They were all in the .16 -.17 range I think.

He showed that if you know what you are doing recoil makes little difference. And I think most people agree that fast splits are not the key to winning.

I say shoot you 40 is ESP and SSP and quit bitching, it's not going to change no sense in fighting over it anyway.

So if power makes no difference shouldn't I be able to shoot ESP with my 1911 in .22? I practice with it and I know I am faster with it than the .40. It sure is simpler to track the sights on the .22 than the .40.

I admire your tenacity.....

[ktm300]

I admire your tenacity.....

I have a hard time with things that are't logical. Guess thats why I program computers for a living.

[ima45dv8]

Done.

If anyone has anything useful to add to this, please PM a Moderator and we'll take it under consideration.