why not a 14.5" barrel?

[Alaskapopo]

Velocity can be dependent on a lot of different things other than just barrel length. My 18 inch Noveske was as fast as my 20 inch Larue before I got a new barrel for the Larue. The new Krieger barrel on the Larue (cut to 18 inches) Is 300 fps faster than the Noveske and a 150 fps faster than my 18 inch barreled JP. My 14.5 inch Noveske I used to own was only 100 fps slower than my 18 inch Noveske and it was faster than my 16 inch Colt. Barrel wear, chamber specs and type of rifling have a play in the velocity as well as length.
Pat

[MarkCO]

RE Post #26, Pat is correct. I've seen 90 fps difference between 2 different brands of 18" rifle length gas barrels and had a 16" shoot faster than an 18". Relative powder speed may benefit one barrel over the other as well.

[pjb45]

Nick,

Two years ago at SMM3G, we had a guy on our squad from Denmark shooting a really short barrel AR, like a 14.5. He was a friend of Kim (you know Kim from Vegas, tiny guy)

He did quite well on all they stages with a short barrel gun.

It would be interesting to see how it would do at RM3G.

[3-Gun Sweden]

Nick,

Two years ago at SMM3G, we had a guy on our squad from Denmark shooting a really short barrel AR, like a 14.5. He was a friend of Kim (you know Kim from Vegas, tiny guy)

He did quite well on all they stages with a short barrel gun.

I guess you mean Mr. E Wolff? I Think he's got farly simple optics too.

It's the indian, not the bow Danish champion

11th place in the Nordic Championship, held in Sweden

11th place in the European Championship, held in Bulgaria

[StealthyBlagga]

Nick,

Two years ago at SMM3G, we had a guy on our squad from Denmark shooting a really short barrel AR, like a 14.5. He was a friend of Kim (you know Kim from Vegas, tiny guy)

He did quite well on all they stages with a short barrel gun.

I guess you mean Mr. E Wolff? I Think he's got farly simple optics too.

It's the indian, not the bow Danish champion

11th place in the Nordic Championship, held in Sweden

11th place in the European Championship, held in Bulgaria

Indeed, that guy ROCKED the Army Target stage. Funny, the targets seemed to work for him... must have been a total fluke

[BD Williamson]

Nick,

Two years ago at SMM3G, we had a guy on our squad from Denmark shooting a really short barrel AR, like a 14.5. He was a friend of Kim (you know Kim from Vegas, tiny guy)

He did quite well on all they stages with a short barrel gun.

I guess you mean Mr. E Wolff? I Think he's got farly simple optics too.

It's the indian, not the bow Danish champion

11th place in the Nordic Championship, held in Sweden

11th place in the European Championship, held in Bulgaria

Indeed, that guy ROCKED the Army Target stage. Funny, the targets seemed to work for him... must have been a total fluke

[BD Williamson]

Nick,

Two years ago at SMM3G, we had a guy on our squad from Denmark shooting a really short barrel AR, like a 14.5. He was a friend of Kim (you know Kim from Vegas, tiny guy)

He did quite well on all they stages with a short barrel gun.

I guess you mean Mr. E Wolff? I Think he's got farly simple optics too.

It's the indian, not the bow Danish champion

11th place in the Nordic Championship, held in Sweden

11th place in the European Championship, held in Bulgaria

Indeed, that guy ROCKED the Army Target stage. Funny, the targets seemed to work for him... must have been a total fluke

Edited May 8, 2013 by BD Williamson

[BD Williamson]

Nick,

Two years ago at SMM3G, we had a guy on our squad from Denmark shooting a really short barrel AR, like a 14.5. He was a friend of Kim (you know Kim from Vegas, tiny guy)

He did quite well on all they stages with a short barrel gun.

I guess you mean Mr. E Wolff? I Think he's got farly simple optics too.

It's the indian, not the bow Danish champion

11th place in the Nordic Championship, held in Sweden

11th place in the European Championship, held in Bulgaria

Indeed, that guy ROCKED the Army Target stage. Funny, the targets seemed to work for him... must have been a total fluke

Edited May 8, 2013 by BD Williamson

[ken hebert]

I think a 7" barrel will do everything that is needed in 3-gun, after that it is all wasted space.

Not much sight radius there oh "irons" man.

[oak hill]

I like to fully extend my hand on a 15" handguard, so muzzle blast would be a problem......

[3-Gun Sweden]

Indeed, that guy ROCKED the Army Target stage. Funny, the targets seemed to work for him... must have been a total fluke

In the Nordic & European Championship I think he got beat by people with 18 and 20"

Can't blame him...getting an AR-15 in Denmark isn't easy. I guess about 10 people own them...or less.

[ClutchUSMC]

Indeed, that guy ROCKED the Army Target stage. Funny, the targets seemed to work for him... must have been a total fluke

In the Nordic & European Championship I think he got beat by people with 18 and 20"

Can't blame him...getting an AR-15 in Denmark isn't easy. I guess about 10 people own them...or less.

All the people at the top of major 3 gun matches will be shooting a barrel between 16" and 20" with 95% of those being 18". Taran runs a 16" last time I looked at his rifle closely and a few of the guys who shoot real irons run 20" for the sight radius.

[pjb45]

If I remember correctly his name was Henrick Blixt. I am not sure why he got moved to Open. I believe He and Kim made a mistake using a Beta Mag.

[StealthyBlagga]

If I remember correctly his name was Henrick Blixt. I am not sure why he got moved to Open. I believe He and Kim made a mistake using a Beta Mag.

Not Henrick - this guy was much better looking

[pjb45]

Perhaps, Henrik Kargh shooting tactical scope. Kim got moved to Open on your stage Stealthy if I remember correctly, the first shot was around 400 yards, followed by a trip to the car and appearing/disappearing targets at 100 and 200 yards.

Sometimes as stage mom, I have a tendency to forget last names and just first names. It was a great squad: Todd, Don, Ralph, Kim, just to name a few folks

Edited May 9, 2013 by pjb45

[Mr Player]

Ok so here it goes.

Couple of things I forgot to mention. All of my test guns are P.O.F. Rifles which are piston guns.

My 18" gun has a mid length gas system

My 16" gun has a carbine length system

And the 14.5" I'm testing has a mid length gas system

And I had a buddy out there with a jp 18" setup

We shot all of them side by side at short range. The 18" barrel jp shot the softest but only marginally better than the 14.5" Pof

The 14.5" surprised everyone that shot it including myself. It was really flat shooting. but the softness and flatness of a gun is kind of hard to measure. But splits and transitions were a little faster with the 14.5 but not really a big difference in the grand scheme of things. We're talking .01's

We chronoed them and as expected I lost velocity with the 14.5" but not as much as I thought. There was only about a 100 fps difference between the 18" and the 14.5" with the 16" almost exactly in the middle.

I'm going to shoot it some more at the local 3gun match this weekend. If anyone wants to give it a try and tell me what they think I will be at rio salado on Saturday for the 3 gun match

Thanks for the input,

Naim "nick" Saiti

Key word in this post is "transitions". I think that is where the time is made up in most 3 gun rifle stages.

[gose]

If I remember correctly his name was Henrick Blixt. I am not sure why he got moved to Open. I believe He and Kim made a mistake using a Beta Mag.

Not Henrick - this guy was much better looking

[StealthyBlagga]

On Saturday, Nick and I experimented with our rifles on a typical 3-Gun hoser stage. Nick's rifle has a 14.5" barreled prototype POF piston-driven upper with the gas port unusually close to the muzzle (maybe between midlength and rifle location?). My rifle has an 18" barreled direct gas impingement upper with rifle-length gas system - conventional wisdom says this is the optimal configuration for 3-Gun.

Shooting both rifles side-by-side, I was impressed with the smoothness of the short rifle. It was maybe not quite as smooth/soft as my rifle, but it was VERY close. The difference was barely discernible... it seems POF did a really nice job.

We both ran through the same hoser stage with our respective rifles. All the targets were at close range (inside 25 yards), engaged over a wide arc, and movement downrange was required to see them all. Shooting this stage on the move was noticeably the fastest way to do it. There were no close-in barriers, so the principal advantage of the short barrel was transition speed rather than tight-space maneuverability. You can see both our runs in the video below:

My observations/comments:

- Both rifles feel about the same weight in the hand. My 18" has a midweight barrel and heavy UBR stock for balance, but the shorty still balances slightly closer to the body (no great surprise goven the short, heavy barrel and gas piston system).

- My run with the 18" rifle was slower, but in part this is due to me more than the rifle. I fired a lot more rounds during the available time, and my cadence seems significantly faster. Watching the video, my rifle barely moves.

- Nick's run with the 14.5" rifle was faster, but I attribute this partly to Nick (who is a very fast shooter). On the other hand, he was running an offset mini red dot versus my (easier to use?) full size Aimpoint. Probably the times were a wash (we need to run both rifles with the same shooter multiple times to get better resolution).

- My biggest concern is still muzzle velocity. Nick reports only a 100fps drop from 18" to 14.5" with his ammo. I gave Nick some of my AA2230/69gr SMK loads to chrono (they average 2889fps out of my 18" rifle and 2660fps out of my 16" rifle - hopefully Nick will report here what his 14.5" actually gets).

- I believe Nick was running a reduced power 55gr load. My load is full power (55gr FMJ @ 3157fps).

- Nick's 14.5" rifle is LOUD. The concussive blast is formidable, but is to be expected from a short barrel with muzzle brake discharged so close to your face.

Overall I would not feel disadvantaged with either rifle. Ultimately I still think the only way to know for sure will be to run the shorty rifle against an 18" rifle on several stages, with all the other variables (shooter, ammo etc.) kept constant. Hopefully in the coming weeks we will have more opportunities to explore this issue.

Edited May 16, 2013 by StealthyBlagga

[Neomet]

And I believe Nick popped the 540 yard target with one shot.

[AZGunut]

Nick hasn't chimed in yet, but I was running the board when he shot the long range stage on Saturdays match and he had a one shot hit on a 540 yard target with that 14.5 and his Vortex 1-6. It was pretty impressive to say the least.

[StealthyBlagga]

And I believe Nick popped the 540 yard target with one shot.

Nick hasn't chimed in yet, but I was running the board when he shot the long range stage on Saturdays match and he had a one shot hit on a 540 yard target with that 14.5 and his Vortex 1-6. It was pretty impressive to say the least.

So did I - with my non-magnified Aimpoint red dot sight. Magnified optics are for POOOOSSIES!!!

[Religious Shooter]

Isn't Nick a GM?

[Neomet]

And I believe Nick popped the 540 yard target with one shot.

Nick hasn't chimed in yet, but I was running the board when he shot the long range stage on Saturdays match and he had a one shot hit on a 540 yard target with that 14.5 and his Vortex 1-6. It was pretty impressive to say the least.

So did I - with my non-magnified Aimpoint red dot sight. Magnified optics are for POOOOSSIES!!!

But your gun was 3 1/2" closer to the target.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Neomet

[broke_again]

I like the rifle length gas system so I use an 18 inch barrel. However I am playing around with the idea of a 16 inch mid-length since our COF's are 400 yds and in. The smoother your recoil pulse the faster you will be shot to shot.

[Alaskapopo]

On Saturday, Nick and I experimented with our rifles on a typical 3-Gun hoser stage. Nick's rifle has a 14.5" barreled prototype POF piston-driven upper with the gas port unusually close to the muzzle (maybe between midlength and rifle location?). My rifle has an 18" barreled direct gas impingement upper with rifle-length gas system - conventional wisdom says this is the optimal configuration for 3-Gun.

Shooting both rifles side-by-side, I was impressed with the smoothness of the short rifle. It was maybe not quite as smooth/soft as my rifle, but it was VERY close. The difference was barely discernible... it seems POF did a really nice job.

We both ran through the same hoser stage with our respective rifles. All the targets were at close range (inside 25 yards), engaged over a wide arc, and movement downrange was required to see them all. Shooting this stage on the move was noticeably the fastest way to do it. There were no close-in barriers, so the principal advantage of the short barrel was transition speed rather than tight-space maneuverability. You can see both our runs in the video below:

My observations/comments:

- Both rifles feel about the same weight in the hand. My 18" has a midweight barrel and heavy UBR stock for balance, but the shorty still balances slightly closer to the body (no great surprise goven the short, heavy barrel and gas piston system).

- My run with the 18" rifle was slower, but in part this is due to me more than the rifle. I fired a lot more rounds during the available time, and my cadence seems significantly faster. Watching the video, my rifle barely moves.

- Nick's run with the 14.5" rifle was faster, but I attribute this partly to Nick (who is a very fast shooter). On the other hand, he was running an offset mini red dot versus my (easier to use?) full size Aimpoint. Probably the times were a wash (we need to run both rifles with the same shooter multiple times to get better resolution).

- My biggest concern is still muzzle velocity. Nick reports only a 100fps drop from 18" to 14.5" with his ammo. I gave Nick some of my AA2230/69gr SMK loads to chrono (they average 2889fps out of my 18" rifle and 2660fps out of my 16: rifle - hopefully Nick will report here what his 14.5" actually gets).

- Nick's 14.5" rifle is LOUD. The concussive blast is formidable, but is to be expected from a short barrel with muzzle brake discharged so close to your face.

Overall I would not feel disadvantaged with either rifle. Ultimately I still think the only way to know for sure will be to run the shorty rifle against an 18" rifle on several stages, with all the other variables (shooter, ammo etc.) kept constant. Hopefully in the coming weeks we will have more opportunities to explore this issue.

This is good but you need to do several runs with each rifle and have each shooter switch. I have done comparisions between different optics this way and you need several runs I usually run 5 and then average the runs when I am testing new optics or equipment for speed. Also do a simple drill with no movement as to eliminate variables.

Pat

Edited May 16, 2013 by Alaskapopo