Let's get real! Revolvers are not competitive in Production.

[Carmoney]

This issue arose on the other thread where we are discussing the pros and cons of possibly adding the 8-shot minor revolver as an option for Revolver Division. Several responders in that discussion suggested that the place for 8-minor revolvers is Production Division. I thought it was worthy of a separate discussion, hence this new thread.....

8-shot Revolvers are never going to be seriously competitive in Production, at anything other than the local schlep level.

I have to disagree with you on this Carmoney. There are revolver shooters using 6 shots at every classification level who can give auto shooters of like classification a run for their money (aka. be competitive with them). Using an 8 shot revolver would likely make them even more competitive in production.

Blueridge, I think you've been breathing too many exhaust fumes off your Ruger Alaskan again. ;-)

Take two competitors of roughly equal capability, and have one shooter run the match with an 8-shot revolver. The other guy shoots with a Production-legal autoloader. I contend the guy with the auto is going to win virtually every time.

Unlike many of the active revolver shooters on here, I compete a lot in Production and Single Stack divisions. I know how those divisions compare to Revolver.

I'm also willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm a A-class shooter in Production, OK? So I'm a decent shooter in Production, but nothing particularly special. Here's my challenge:

I'll shoot any 2013 major USPSA match with my XD9 heads-up against anybody who is willing to shoot an iron-sighted 8-shot revolver in Production Division, and I'll willing to put $100 on it.

Jerry Miculek and Rob Leatham might beat me. But those guys are at least 10-15% ahead of me in Revo. Saddle them with 8-shot 627s and moonclips and give me a 10-shot pistol with a sweet trigger and faster reloads, and I'll still give them a very decent run for it.

I think I can beat everybody else.

Who wants to take me up on my challenge?

Edited February 6, 2013 by Carmoney

[diehli]

Let's get real. 6-shot revolvers are never going to be competitive if Revolver Division is modified to allow 8-shot revolvers.

[Carmoney]

Let's get real. 6-shot revolvers are never going to be competitive if Revolver Division is modified to allow 8-shot revolvers.

Wrong thread, diehli.

This is a discussion about whether 8-shot revolvers are competitive in Production Division. I contend they are not.

[diehli]

So what if they aren't? Why do they have to be?

[PatJones]

Let's get real. 6-shot revolvers are never going to be competitive if Revolver Division is modified to allow 8-shot revolvers.

So what if they aren't? Why do they have to be?

Yes, why do 6 shot revolvers need to be competitive in Revolver division? Because you own one? We all do.

Where would the sport be if open class was limited to single stack guns? Sports progress.

8 shot guns are _allowed_ in production but there is a big difference between a 6lb trigger with a 1/2 inch of movement and a 2.5 lb M&P trigger with a short reset. 8 shots vs 10+1. They will never be truly competitive.

Which one of these is not like the others?

-pat

[diehli]

The onus is on you (and Mike, TGO, etc.) to show through rational argument why Revolver Division should be changed to allow 8-shot revolvers. So far the arguments amount to little more than "because I want it".

[Carmoney]

diehli, do you even compete with a revolver?

[diehli]

Ad hominem time?

[Carmoney]

No, I'm just trying to figure out if you have any skin in the game here.

My other thread was intended to gather information to determine whether there is a "rational argument" to change the rules and allow 8-minor. It includes a poll (which strongly indicates that more people would shoot the division if they could run 8-minor) and suggests testing and provisional acceptance before making any permanent changes. I think it's a rational approach. The goal is to make Revolver Division more fun and grow our numbers.

This separate thread is to respond to those who say that Production is a viable place for 8-shot minor revolvers to be competitive.

[Nik Habicht]

diehli, do you even compete with a revolver?

Wrong argument, if you wish to grow revolver participation.......

That would take some folks joining who aren't competing in RD.....

[Nik Habicht]

This separate thread is to respond to those who say that Production is a viable place for 8-shot minor revolvers to be competitive.

While I was happy about the inclusion, in case a shooter with a near stock 627 showed up to one of my matches, I agree with you. If we want Revolvers to be viable within the division, then we'd need to create a category....

[beltjones]

It's pretty obvious from looking at combined results that revolvers are not competitive - at all - in Production division. I mean, the best revolver shooters in America are no match for A class Production shooters. If you add a couple more rounds I'm sure it would help eliminate a few standing reloads, but it won't make them competitive.

[Neomet]

My money is on Mike. If 8 shot revos were competitive in Production we would see them being used now by folks other than "Death Before Bottom Feeders" dedicated revo shooters. Heck, even with Mike's unnatural love of wheelies you will note he chooses to shoot a semi in Production. It may be legal and interesting to shoot an 8 shot in Production but it is not a competitive tool.

[bikerburgess]

there are lots of guns that are not competitive in in the divisions that they fit into. you can shoot a 8 shot revolver in 5 of our 6 divisions. you will be most competitive in revo or production. is a 627 the best tool for either division? probably not, (load it to major pf and don't shoot more than 6 at a time and it would not be far off a 625) so the question is should there be a division for every gun to be competitive?

Mike

[inkedshooter]

What about some of the 686 plus shooters out there? : ). Why not try it out and see how it goes. We need any kind of support for our shooting sports.

[TGO]

I can't beat Carmony at a USPSA event with any revolver if he's got a production gun. Unless he sucked....I have recently shot a couple Rio Tuesday Night Steel matches and though I used the permitted 8 shooter, was no where close to the finishes I expect with any other equipment, including my normal 8 round SS division guns. I shot pretty well a couple times also. The loading, whether on the move or not and the speed and attendant accuracy I can achieve far, far favor the autoloader. Again, that that was at equal capacity.

[Buffalobolt]

I am "one of those shooter's", that uses his 627 in Production. Just posted such in the other thread...

I think it "revolve's" (pun intended) around your individual theory of competing vs being "competitive".

I KNOW that I'll likely never win a Production match with my 627. I sometime's shoot my Glock 19 in Production, or my 1911 in SS, where I'm MUCH more "competitive" in the overall local matches.

BUT, I don't care. If I was only concerned with winning Production, I would shoot my Glock. For that matter, I should sell my 19 carry gun, for a 34 to have my best shot at being competitive.

RIGHT NOW, there is only one place where I can shoot the 627 to capacity, and shoot my light 38 short Colts for both recoil and quick re-loading. While I give up two or three shots in capacity to the automatics, I still get to shoot the gun I LOVE TO SHOOT and compete. I'll always have my sights set on those that place above me as a barometer of my progress. And, always work towards getting better.

Do I compare my stages against anyone shooting in the revolver class? Absolutely! I've even considered getting some Starline brass to load Major 38's to use in L-10, just to see how that affects my overall placement in the match.

The bottom line is this; I still have a place to:

1. Use the gun I love to use.
   
2. Still have most of the challenges of using the revolver (I don't have to worry about those 8 shot strings though, so long as I don't miss!).
   
3. Have more competition than I know what to do with... I figure that IF I can beat the auto's on their own ground, I'll only become better (and will be that much better with the auto...).
   

That being said, IF 8 shot minor was approved for Revolver, I would switch in a heartbeat! For that matter, even if it remained 6 shot, but the 7th was a penalty (instead of a bump to open), I might still try that... Not sure whether it would be Major or Minor though... Those 38SC sure shoot sweat!

[seanc]

I contend they are not.

They are not, its ridiculous.

The reload time is half or less for a mag feed gun.

I've done this for many matches(as practice for ICORE), shooting a 627 in production.

The reload is hopelessly to slow, forget it.

[No.343]

I am "one of those shooter's", that uses his 627 in Production. Just posted such in the other thread...

I think it "revolve's" (pun intended) around your individual theory of competing vs being "competitive".

I KNOW that I'll likely never win a Production match with my 627. I sometime's shoot my Glock 19 in Production, or my 1911 in SS, where I'm MUCH more "competitive" in the overall local matches.

BUT, I don't care. If I was only concerned with winning Production, I would shoot my Glock. For that matter, I should sell my 19 carry gun, for a 34 to have my best shot at being competitive.

RIGHT NOW, there is only one place where I can shoot the 627 to capacity, and shoot my light 38 short Colts for both recoil and quick re-loading. While I give up two or three shots in capacity to the automatics, I still get to shoot the gun I LOVE TO SHOOT and compete. I'll always have my sights set on those that place above me as a barometer of my progress. And, always work towards getting better.

Do I compare my stages against anyone shooting in the revolver class? Absolutely! I've even considered getting some Starline brass to load Major 38's to use in L-10, just to see how that affects my overall placement in the match.

The bottom line is this; I still have a place to:

1. Use the gun I love to use.
   
2. Still have most of the challenges of using the revolver (I don't have to worry about those 8 shot strings though, so long as I don't miss!).
   
3. Have more competition than I know what to do with... I figure that IF I can beat the auto's on their own ground, I'll only become better (and will be that much better with the auto...).
   

That being said, IF 8 shot minor was approved for Revolver, I would switch in a heartbeat! For that matter, even if it remained 6 shot, but the 7th was a penalty (instead of a bump to open), I might still try that... Not sure whether it would be Major or Minor though... Those 38SC sure shoot sweat!

Don't you need a 40 caliber to make major in L-10?

[Buffalobolt]

343,

You are correct, sir. I missed that...

[Rogan]

Mike, UR ON!!!!

Can u make it to Area 2 in Nov?

Rich

[Carmoney]

Mike, UR ON!!!!

Can u make it to Area 2 in Nov?

Rich

YES!! I love that somebody is taking me up on this. And I have always wanted to shoot an Area 2 Championship and have never had the chance. Let's do this thing!

I have added the match to my calendar. Right now I have a trial set to start on Nov. 4, but that case is likely to settle. Now, I know Area 2 is traditionally really hard to get into--now that I'm a "semi-regular" at Rio Salado, maybe that will help?? ;-)

[lee blackman]

I got it.... new division, we'll call it the "Restricted 7-8" division. Its a combined division that allows 7 and 8 shot revolvers to compete along side with 7rd capacity restricted semi-auto's.

[cliffwalsh]

Competitive is a relative term. Do you mean able to win the division at top level? No it will not unless something crazy happens.

Do you mean that the same guy will always do better with a auto vs revo? Overall that is true because most people shoot autos more. I know for a fact that i would do better with the revo everytime and that is because I spend my time there. Of course Rob is going to do better with an auto, the number of rounds he has put through and auto is many times more than I will shoot in my life.

Being competitive is a very subjective term. If you finish in the middle or bottom of the pack, does it matter if it was a revo or auto? Is either on competitive?

[lora]

Even though it was fun to compete the one time I did shoot my 627super in production, and it was fun to see the change in the auto loaders demeanor halfway through the match as they realized they were being beaten by a revolver, but I only placed upper 1/3. I think we all know that it will never be able to be a winning combination ( 8 shot revolver & production.)

By cliff's definition, I agree it may be competitive, but definitely not a winnable choice.