Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[pskys2]

And the short cylinder of the PC625 doesn't have any impact on it either.

[Alaskapopo]

How about new divisions.

1 Open revolver allow revolvers with optics and comps no capacity limit on the cylinders.

2. Limited revolver allow 8 shots and no comps or optics.

3. Production revolver 6 shot only.

Pat

[Carmoney]

Stop and think about it: If the equipment rules made any frickin' sense at all, we would have two divisions--revolver and semi-auto--with production, limited, and open categories within those two divisions.

[sbcman]

How about new divisions.

1 Open revolver allow revolvers with optics and comps no capacity limit on the cylinders.

2. Limited revolver allow 8 shots and no comps or optics.

3. Production revolver 6 shot only.

Pat

Stop and think about it: If the equipment rules made any frickin' sense at all, we would have two divisions--revolver and semi-auto--with production, limited, and open categories within those two divisions.

These suggestions seem to be the most logical and simplistic answer to the issue at hand. +1 to you both for the ideas.

Question: Should any of it be scored minor only, like production? Or would it be easier to just score all revolver divisions/categories minor? I personally wouldn't gripe about all of it going minor. Also, could 625s with carmonized hammer run in production since they've been modified?

Edited April 4, 2013 by sbcman

[Bubber]

Come on guys. If you want these changes get out there at the local levels and shoot your revolver. Pounding on the keyboards won't accomplish much. In a discussion with ChrisC, we need to bring up the level of particiapation at the local levels. Chris and I shoot together a lot at the loccal matchaes. When we travel to Tulsa, it is just ChrisC and I shooting the Revo. At our home match (Just called home as it is over a hundred miles one way to shoot it) there can be as many as 8 revo shooters. The closest match I go to is run by ChrisC. and the Club is heavily side to the Steel Challenge Format. So that is to let you know that ChrisC. and I are committed, or maybe should be committed, which ever. Latter rdd

[Ty Hamby]

Come on guys. If you want these changes get out there at the local levels and shoot your revolver.

My shooting buddy and myself have both shot 40 plus revolver matches in the last 12 months in equal divisions. He is typically a class above me in all sports. Here is a quick breakdown.

He is an B USPSA revolver shooter I am a C.

He is a B USPSA limited-10 shooter I am a C.

He is an A ICORE limited shooter I am B limited.

He is an ESR Expert I am currently a Sharpshooter.

I usually finish around -6-10% worst than he does. It doesn't matter if its IDPA, ICORE, or USPSA. He always gets me with an average better time/score. Today I shot L10 with my 627-4 and he shot Revolver division with a 625. He got me right around 6% again today. He reloaded 7 times total on the day more than me. I shot 2-4 more C's than he. I shot one mike and NS to his clean day. I did beat him on a 16 round hoser stage that was 2 eight round arrays. On a 20 round hoser that had 2- 6shot arrays with one 8 shot arrays he beat me again by 6%. The 2 30+ round field courses he beat me on both, even with his extra reloads on him. Overall combined all divisions 99 shooters today. (I know Ugh! long day.) he finished 46th@51% an myself 56th@44% Overall on the day. If he makes a mistake, and I am there to capitalize on it I can sometimes sneek out a stage and/or very rare overall victory.

I dont know yet if the 200-300 or so nation wide active USPSA 625 revolver shooters outweigh the potential nationwide 8shot revolver shooters. If USPSA wishes to entertain the idea of better revolver participation 8shot revolvers can not be ignored and should be proposed on a tenative basis. How is this accomplished and where do you put them? That is left up to minds much sharper than my own. I would be curious to know how many revolver classifiers get turned in each month. 100?....more? hmmm?

[Flexmoney]

If USPSA wishes to entertain the idea of better revolver participation 8shot revolvers can not be ignored.

What about the 6-shot 357/38? I know a zillon gun owners that have those. I only know a handful of people with 8-shot wheelies.

[Carmoney]

What about the 6-shot 357/38? I know a zillon gun owners that have those. I only know a handful of people with 8-shot wheelies.

They're already allowed to play. And very few of them have any interest in playing a game that's already really difficult with a moonclip gun. We could try to promote USPSA to the 6-minor crowd, but it's never going to have much appeal. IDPA SSR or ICORE Classic make so much more sense for that type of gun, due to the restrictions on stage design in those disciplines (which are supposed to be revolver-neutral).

I don't think it's about the type of gun people already have. People will always acquire the equipment if they want to compete. By making Revolver Division more fun for more people, we should attract more participation. Trying to run a 6-shot revolver in this game means you are constantly running against the flow of the stages. Constantly beating your head against the wall. Yes, a few hardy wheelgunners are attracted to that kind of masochistic challenge. But most people try it a few times and switch to something else, because they just don't find it all that enjoyable.

[Flexmoney]

Trying to run a 6-shot revolver in this game means you are constantly running against the flow of the stages. Constantly beating your head against the wall. Yes, a few hardy wheelgunners are attracted to that kind of masochistic challenge.

I thought that was the whole point?

[No.343]

I thought it was a machosistic challenge

[COF]

I've been thinking about the speedloader contingent everyone is talking about. In the 17 years I've been shooting in this area, I can only recall a couple of folks shooting USPSA matches with speedloaders. Personally, I've got wheelguns I reload with speedloaders for IDPA and ICORE Classic but have never shot USPSA with them with the exception of Sam's first MCC. IMHO, if those folks really wanted to shoot revolver, they would have bought a 646, 610, or 625 to shoot USPSA or had their 6-shooter cut for moonclips and shot minor. No, it's not the most competitive, but if you really want to shoot revolver, you'll find a way to do it. Hell, I've shot Area matches minor before - wasn't my intention but...(NOTE: if reloading with WST, make sure the temperatures are hotter when you chrono than when you shoot the match or build a bigger margin in your load )

In my experience you always get a lot of folks who say "If you change this or that I'll support it" but then never quite get around to supporting anything even after the changes. I honestly believe there has to be an incentive for most of these folks with speedloader guns to try the game, whether it's no match fee, a handicapped scoring system or some other "field leveler." Even then there's no guarantee they'll stick with the game.

We talk about making if fun, but shooting USPSA is not easy fun, it's a challenge. You can have fun meeting the challenge but you have to be willing to take on the challenge in the first place. In today's instant gratification environment too few folks want to take on challenges when there are easier ways to do it.

YMMV

[Racinready300ex]

I've been thinking about the speedloader contingent everyone is talking about. In the 17 years I've been shooting in this area, I can only recall a couple of folks shooting USPSA matches with speedloaders. Personally, I've got wheelguns I reload with speedloaders for IDPA and ICORE Classic but have never shot USPSA with them with the exception of Sam's first MCC. IMHO, if those folks really wanted to shoot revolver, they would have bought a 646, 610, or 625 to shoot USPSA or had their 6-shooter cut for moonclips and shot minor. No, it's not the most competitive, but if you really want to shoot revolver, you'll find a way to do it. Hell, I've shot Area matches minor before - wasn't my intention but...(NOTE: if reloading with WST, make sure the temperatures are hotter when you chrono than when you shoot the match or build a bigger margin in your load )

In my experience you always get a lot of folks who say "If you change this or that I'll support it" but then never quite get around to supporting anything even after the changes. I honestly believe there has to be an incentive for most of these folks with speedloader guns to try the game, whether it's no match fee, a handicapped scoring system or some other "field leveler." Even then there's no guarantee they'll stick with the game.

We talk about making if fun, but shooting USPSA is not easy fun, it's a challenge. You can have fun meeting the challenge but you have to be willing to take on the challenge in the first place. In today's instant gratification environment too few folks want to take on challenges when there are easier ways to do it.

YMMV

I've shot a speedloader gun in USPSA, but I can see why people don't. Going in I knew I had no chance with a minor load and speedloaders take a good second longer to reload. But, I want to shoot a revolver so I did. I've also purchased a 625 so I can do it right, now if Maryland ever gets around to doing my background check I'll be in good shape.

I think if someone wants to shoot with a speedloader gun, IDPA is a better place to be, that's where I do most of my shooting. Would giving them a place in USPSA help? I don't know. I do know at every sanctioned match I've been to SSR shooters out number ESR shooter by a good 4 to 1.

[Flexmoney]

I think if someone wants to shoot with a speedloader gun, IDPA is a better place to be, that's where I do most of my shooting. Would giving them a place in USPSA help? I don't know. I do know at every sanctioned match I've been to SSR shooters out number ESR shooter by a good 4 to 1.

Might be good to look at the other games, like IDPA and Steel Challenge, and see what kind of numbers they are getting.

[pskys2]

Most of the Speed Loaders I've seen, and actually did it at one time by choice, were guys just starting out or ex PPC types. It was usually the only thing they had and would go on to autos pretty quickly. Those that stayed with Revolver would go the N frame route. Good Speed Loaders just seem a bit more hassle than Moon Clips and just about as expensive, especially for the effort/results. The game is also set at a faster pace and heavier round counts than IDPA, and even most ICORE. So it seems that the gain in USPSA would be minimal. If you really get down to it, and someone starts with a 6 shot Speed Loader, it's a question of when they move on, not if, and the question only becomes whether it will be an Auto or a Moon Clipped Revo of some kind.

[Cd662]

"I think if someone wants to shoot with a speedloader gun, IDPA is a better place to be, that's where I do most of my shooting. Would giving them a place in USPSA help? I don't know. I do know at every sanctioned match I've been to SSR shooters out number ESR shooter by a good 4 to 1."

Respectfully, I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. Reloading with a moonclip is significantly easier than using speedloaders, there shouldn't be any contention to that. Speedloaders are slower and they carry a lot of risk. The reason there aren't many ESR shooters at sanctioned matches isn't because they can reload easier (this makes no sense); it's because people don't want to deal with major power factor out of a 4 inch gun. We already saw that a lot of people specifically dislike major power factor in USPSA, and that's usually with 5 or 6 inch barrel gun.

Where are these armies of people with 8 shot guns or 7 shot guns or break open Webleys or .41 Magnum Smiths or speedloader fed guns or S&W 500 snubnose revolvers that are just DYING to shoot USPSA if ONLY there was a division or category to accommodate them? I still don't see it.

[TGO]

Wait a little longer and we will see. Maybe there is no one, but maybe some of the ICORE guys will crossover. In our club alone we have 30-40 folks who are shooting ICORE. Most of those folks do not have 6 shooters so when the they come to a USPSA event they shoot in L10, because of the Prod holster rules. Since they can't be competitive, they do it infrequently. If they want, with the inclusion of 8 minor they can now shoot USPSA in revo division. Only time will show whether they do or not. What's the harm in trying? If no more come out, we have lost nothing. It would be hard to have less attendance!

Edited April 12, 2013 by TGO

[Blueridge]

It occurred to me that it is the differences between ICORE and USPSA that may have caused the level of participation we now see in Revolver Division in USPSA. ICORE matches allow for a wider variety of revolvers to be used, and with that participants take the opportunity provided to use the options allowed. Then you compare that to what revolver shooters are allowed in USPSA, and it apparently does not appeal to as many ICORE shooters. Beyond the equipment issue lack of other revolver shooters to compete against in USPSA matches in general has caused revolver participation to be low. The first step is to get more participation in USPSA Revolver Division, as has been discussed on this thread. To that end more revolver dedicated matches need to be held, in my opinion. The Memphis Charity Challenge is an example. I am confident that revolver shooters that have attended spent some time training and shooting at other matches getting ready for the MCC, because they had a specific match to prepare for. Now a dedicated Revolver Nationals is going to happen and clearly this has brought out more people shooting revolvers at nationals. Lack of a dedicated match may have been a large reason for low revolver participation in USPSA as a whole.

The issue of the 6+ shot revolvers is an important one, but getting the Revolver Nationals and more dedicated revolver matches should have precedence. If you don't have the matches to attract the revolver shooters, then it does not really matter what equipment is allowed.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Blueridge

[pskys2]

I think it's great to look at the ICORE crowd, but I think it's apples and oranges. USPSA is considered the come as you are, wide open, wild and wooly ,balls to the walls, your hair's on fire events. While ICORE is a Revolver specific event. Kind of like you see a lot more at SASS matches, but they just won't do USPSA.

[lcs]

I think it's great to look at the ICORE crowd, but I think it's apples and oranges. USPSA is considered the come as you are, wide open, wild and wooly ,balls to the walls, your hair's on fire events. While ICORE is a Revolver specific event. Kind of like you see a lot more at SASS matches, but they just won't do USPSA.

All ICORE folks believe that?

[Blueridge]

I think it's great to look at the ICORE crowd, but I think it's apples and oranges. USPSA is considered the come as you are, wide open, wild and wooly ,balls to the walls, your hair's on fire events. While ICORE is a Revolver specific event. Kind of like you see a lot more at SASS matches, but they just won't do USPSA.

I tend to agree with you. I believe that to improve revolver participation in USPSA that matches such as the Memphis Charity Challenge and the upcoming dedicated revolver nationals are what is needed. It does not matter what the equipment allowed is if the matches to participate in are not there. I have no issue with ICORE participants, as I have not had the opportunity to try the disipline. Therefore I really cannot make any statements to their mindset.

I am a competitive fencer and every year my goal is to qualify and compete in the US Nationals. There are 3 weapon categories (Foil, Epee, a & Saber), 4 divisions (III, II, I, & IA), and age based competitions (Y12, Y14, U16, U19, Vet40, Vet50, Vet60, & Vet70). When I competeted in Australia in 2004 I found out that their "Nationals" is all one big competition. The fencers that I spoke with advised that they would love to have the divisions that the USA has at their nationals. The different divisions attracts more competitors to the nationals.

My point is that making a dedicated revolver nationals attracts more revolver competitors (as can be seen by the entrant numbers), where as before participants were choosing between revolver and one of the auto divisions at nationals, with revolver division losing participants in the decision. Currently I believe that more dedicated matches are the answer to the participation issue. Having two matches during the year like the Memphis Charity Challenge and then a dedicated Revolver Nationals would increase participation.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Blueridge

[Flexmoney]

I was wondering about all these ICORE shooters. I went to their webpage and looked for clubs. I am in Ohio. The closest club to me is in Kentucky. They plan to have 4 matches this year. The next closest club is in Indiana. They are scheduled for monthly matches (excluding winter). Their most recent match had 5 shooters, total.

[Carmoney]

At least from an organizational point of view, ICORE seems to be an intensely regional thing. There are a few hot spots where there's plenty of ICORE activity (notably CA and AZ), but most of the country remains unserved by that organization.

Frankly, this is one reason why it makes sense for USPSA to adopt a more open and inclusive set of equipment rules for Revolver Division. People who would like to shoot ICORE but have no matches in their area can generally find a USPSA affiliate somewhere reasonably local to where they live.

I don't think this whole discussion is really about "attracting the 8-shot ICORE guys to come over and shoot with us." And it's also not about "there's all these guys out there with 627s and no place to shoot."

It's about making USPSA Revolver more fun for more people. For the 70-year-old guy with arthritis, or the ladies and younger shooters with smaller hands, who don't do well with N-frames firing major-power loads. For those shooters who want to shoot their local club matches and be able to put pressure on the shooters in the other divisions.

People will acquire the equipment, and show up to shoot, if we make it more accessible. More shootable. More fun!

[Cd662]

"It's about making USPSA Revolver more fun for more people. For the 70-year-old guy with arthritis, or the ladies and younger shooters with smaller hands, who don't do well with N-frames firing major-power loads. For those shooters who want to shoot their local club matches and be able to put pressure on the shooters in the other divisions."

Quoted for truth.

[Ty Hamby]

Carmony nailed it again. It is all of that ^^^^…

Since USPSA scoring is all about speed. There will always be a single platform that just dominates the competition. Fix the scoring and you open to so many more people. But I digress. Back to Carmony nailed it.

[lcs]

At least from an organizational point of view, ICORE seems to be an intensely regional thing. There are a few hot spots where there's plenty of ICORE activity (notably CA and AZ), but most of the country remains unserved by that organization.

Frankly, this is one reason why it makes sense for USPSA to adopt a more open and inclusive set of equipment rules for Revolver Division. People who would like to shoot ICORE but have no matches in their area can generally find a USPSA affiliate somewhere reasonably local to where they live.

I don't think this whole discussion is really about "attracting the 8-shot ICORE guys to come over and shoot with us." And it's also not about "there's all these guys out there with 627s and no place to shoot."

It's about making USPSA Revolver more fun for more people. For the 70-year-old guy with arthritis, or the ladies and younger shooters with smaller hands, who don't do well with N-frames firing major-power loads. For those shooters who want to shoot their local club matches and be able to put pressure on the shooters in the other divisions.

People will acquire the equipment, and show up to shoot, if we make it more accessible. More shootable. More fun!

Well said.