Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[cliffwalsh]

This has been an interesting discussion and I'm glad to see the increased interest. There is one major problem here. Six shot major vs 8 shot minor will never be completely fair. As Rob said, the Classic has never been won by minor. I know it works in single stack with 8 vs 10 but that is a special set of circumstances. The match is 8 round neutral and limited to 24 round stages meaning both 8 and 10 have to make 2 reloads. Are their many stages that have 17 to 20 rounds where the 10 shots only have 1 load? Having never gone, I don't know but I would be surprised if there were, other than a standards with mandatory reloads. In USPSA, stages between 25 and 30 rounds would give 10 shooters one less load so it does not work as perfect under USPSA rules. The Classic is a special match and it is run under a special set of rules that makes it fair. Applying that to USPSA does not work. In SS, the advantage of 10 shooters in mitigated by the 8 round array rule and I'm sure is minimal. How many matches with top level competition have been won by minor shooter?? I would be curious to know that. In revolver, the advantage would be much greater and many of the extra reloads would be standing to make them worse. Rob has said we can make a special match that is 6 round neutral and the is great (like the IRC) but the rest of USPSA competition will not be fair. Even if the 8 round minor is 90% fair compared to 6 round major, it is 10% unfair. If something is a little unfair, it is in fact unfair. You can't be a little pregnant and so on. If it is unfair, how can the board pass it??

I hear a lot of you want to shoot your 8 shots in USPSA revolver division. We should be discussing adding a rule to allow any revolver into the division. Those that want revolver to be minor only, propose that. We talked about getting new shooters, I like adding a speedloader category. You might get some of the classic guys and there are many shooters who have a k or l frame (or colt or ruger) who would just need some speedloaders to give it a try. I think that is much more likey than a new guys buying a $1000 gun to try it.

[lora]

Cliff, did I miss a previous post? Are you against any provisional test, experiment or data gathering that involves the use of an 8 or 7 shooter or just a permanent rule change without any datum.

Do you think to grow the division, only option is with a 6 shooter in some form?

Edited February 12, 2013 by lora

[cliffwalsh]

Cliff, did I miss a previous post? Are you against any provisional test, experiment or data gathering that involves the use of an 8 or 7 shooter or just a permanent rule change without any datum.

Do you think to grow the division, only option is with a 6 shooter in some form?

You should probably reread the last post.

[TGO]

Me thinks the possibility of amending the rules allowing 8 minor into the existing division is rather easy and therefore an attractive proposition. It is also much more probable than adding any new divisions such as open or 6 minor only or 6 speed loader or whatever. Most of that is now legal and few are opting to use them. Minor8 is doable with little change to the rules. That was the the whole point.

All the stuff this thread has brought out has been very good. It shows a large interest in the health and well fare of the division. I'm glad to see such interest. The same arguments are being made over and over by the same posters. I know I have. Those that do not want a change and those that do all have valid points and have seldom changed their views. I want the division to prosper and do it without requiring wholesale changes. Some will argue that minor 8 is such. Maybe it is? But status quo has not taken care of the division. Let's try something.

Reality is that this may very well cool down after the Nationals and maybe no one will care then. I personally hope that's not the case but we will see. I will not care about SS or Revo as much as I do now as I will, as has been pointed out, have to go back to the divisions I'm required to shoot. But that's because production, limited L10 and open are upcoming. I will after those end late this year, go back to SS and revolver. By then I will have probably shot more revolver matches and trained than most. I am not typical. I am interested in the sport and it's health from the Nationals (which may be fixed) to the club level, which most assuredly isn't well. This sport survives at the local level. That has gotta be fixed.

So we run the Nationals where you are probably going to win shooting major regardless of the rules because of excellent course design. And competition at the local level is dominated by shooting minor 8. If we have many more shooters in the division, I'll take that. BTW, If you really want a test of your skill, try beating a good 8 shooter with your 6?

Either way if we get larger numbers at the clubs, and you can no longer win that level event with an 8 I'm ok with that, if we get growth. I for one and maybe Carmoney also, do not feel that you will have to have the 8 option.

I do fear that the results of the National will skew some views. I personally hope it is a shooting contest and not a track meet. The SS never has been. I'm sure that's gonna be perceived as me not liking big courses. That would be correct, if what you want is nothing but those. I have always liked the short courses, even when I was young and skinny and fast and was winning because of them. We used to take great pride in doing well at the nationals on the standard exercise stages. That has now gone the way of the dodo. Gonna warn you now, If I was a betting man, you are going to see a shooting match and not a track meet in Barry.

I also see a match that will be won by major 6. You can shoot minor 6 if you like, but you aint gunna win! Those are the 2 choices. Therefore it will not matter how well or poorly a stage is set up regarding number of reloads required. You also will not be able to absorb lots of dropped points. This is why SS has never been won over all with minor even though it has a 2 round advantage. Not because the stages do not have some places where the little guns are better. The ladies match is completely dominated by the minor 10's.

And yes there have been stages that the 8 major has had to do extra loads compared to the minor 10. It should, that's how all equipment becomes competitive.

How this apply's to the revo match will be that the stages ought to be setup to the division being shot. this can be done this year. We shouldn't do a pile of standing loads, hell there shouldn't be a pile of loads in any stage. This is a match designed for the revolvers and I for one think forcing a standing load indicates either a mistake by the shooter or the course designer. I'll tell you this, the stages I hate the most shooting revo are the ones that have me loading for more time than I'm shooting and moving! Those are also the SS matches I hate the most.

[cliffwalsh]

That brings up an interesting thought. Is minor not a viable option at all?? The scoring was developed to balance out major and minor, right? I have only been around this for 10 years so I wasn't around at the beginning.

What was the thinking when the scoring was developed??

Does it work today??

[JohnRodriguez]

The course design for SS, weather for the western state ss or the ss nationals is set up for the 7 round mag of a major gun. The minor ss really doesn't come into play unless you get into a steel array and get to hose into it. There was no real advantage to running minor ss at this years wsssc match other than stages 10 and 11, correct? And 11 only because the hits on the no shoot poppers would not go down unless you hit the head.

If the revo nationals were to be back to back with the open or limited guns, then I don't think that the 8 shot would have as much of a advantage as the targets are a little bit further and you won't have nice convenient 7 or 8 shot arreys. Instead you'll have the normal uspsa hose fest where regardless of 6 or 8 shot revo you will be doing standing reloads and when it comes down to that, the 6 shot major would probably be a better choice

[Carmoney]

That brings up an interesting thought. Is minor not a viable option at all?? The scoring was developed to balance out major and minor, right? I have only been around this for 10 years so I wasn't around at the beginning.

What was the thinking when the scoring was developed??

Does it work today??

Back in the day, the original intention was to make sure 8-major (1911 .45) stayed roughly competitive with 13-minor (Browning Hi-Power 9mm). Those were the two common platforms in the game back then, before all the hi-cap major stuff came into use. Minor scoring was designed to create a pretty serious penalty--particularly for the lower to average level shooter who gets quite a few C and D hits--over the course of the match. This is one reason why I continue to strongly suspect that 8-minor might not make 6-major obsolescent after all.

We all bitched about the 2012 Nats in Vegas being a bunch of 8-shot arrays that kept disappearing from view, allowing few options. It sure felt that way at the time. Yet Matt noted that he only did a relatively few standing reloads during the match with his 625! Very interesting!

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that 6-major would still be fully viable even if 8-minor were allowed. If testing and experience proves out my theory on that, maybe we could all be persuaded that adding 8-minor would not create a wholesale change in the division, and maybe we could start to view it as an option without any serious downside.

Seriously guys, I mess around in USPSA with a lot of different types of platforms, and have particularly shot quite a bit of Revo, SS, and Production over the years. I have a pretty good idea of how the divisions compare. 6-major is tough, but then again 8-minor would be pretty damn tough, too. By the time you make sure you get mostly A-hits, and never miss, and have to the absorb slightly slower reloads, you might very well discover that you could have done just as well with your 625 after all.

Or so it seems to me. (For the last 7-8 years.)

[TGO]

Ok a little history. The whole major/ minor caliber thing was based on the stopping power of the cartridges as specified by the founder, Jeff Cooper. At the very beginning, before my involvement, there were just hits and misses. But as the study of the use of handguns for tactical use was developed, the power of the cartridge being used greatly varied the results of gunfights. Historical data too numerous to cover here including the Thompson/ LeGarde tests, Military and Law Enforcement studies and the then recent wartime experience were all factors in Coopers decision to vary the points scored by peripheral hits on the target due to power.

Remember this all started within a few decades of the end of WWII and Korean conflict, and during or towards the end of the Vietnam war. I'm not an historian but there was lots of case history and experience at the time and Major calibers were deemed better stoppers. This is where the whole Major Minor thing came from.

Power was deemed more important than magazine capacity. The matches reflected that and it was impossible to win at the major level shooting minor and only one world shoot was won using minor in divisions that allowed both, as I remember. This is as The founders intended. Higher capacity magazines were around but weren't heavily used as they really were not needed as the courses of fire were much lower in round count than now. Lower hit factors made points more important. Clock time mattered, but not as much as today and those hits in the c and d zones were much more damaging to a score than now.

The sport is based on the martial use of the handgun and a more powerful gun is deemed a better tool for the job, as long as the operator could use it effectively. This is to us old timers one of the more important aspects of this sport, something that sets itself apart from just target shooting. Without it we would be shooting .22's as they can hold more and kick less. They are however grossly underpowered for the theoretical use and therefore not relevant as other than training tools. It is this realistic requirement of equipment, at least in theory that makes IPSC/IDPA type competition and techniques the basis for any modern combat handgun training program. As the sport has matured it is more of a game now than just the realistic testing of equipment and training it started as, but the need to control a full power load is still the Vis in DVC.

Call me Grandpa....

[Pete Whyte]

Another thought would be to have revolver div. scored as minor,& when all scored list it 8 shot / 6shot. I shoot a 627 & a 625. I would perfer to down load to 150.P.F. I love the way those fat little slugs just fall in. Others could have their .38s cut for moon clips, or just stick with speed loaders. When the score sheets were posted everyone could see who shot with an 8 or 6 shot. Make sense?

[COF]

Another thought would be to have revolver div. scored as minor,& when all scored list it 8 shot / 6shot. I shoot a 627 & a 625. I would perfer to down load to 150.P.F. I love the way those fat little slugs just fall in. Others could have their .38s cut for moon clips, or just stick with speed loaders. When the score sheets were posted everyone could see who shot with an 8 or 6 shot. Make sense?

Not really since you are putting them both on the same level and when you do that the higher capacity will win. As Rob stated, major/minor was based on real data and was designed to give more points to major, balancing out the round advantage for minor.

I'm considering getting my 686 cut for moonclips so I can try moonclip minor to see how it compares to moonclip major FOR ME. I know it's not competitive at the upper level but I know I'm never going to be one of the top shooters. I want to continue shooting so I'll see if that keeps me in the game having fun. Everyone has their own reasons for shooting revolver. Having fun and kicking bottom feeder butt once in a while is mine. If we can bring in new shooters allowing the 8-shots, great. If not, no harm, no foul.

I'm getting this real "deja vu" thing going with this thread...

Edited February 12, 2013 by COF

[TGO]

I don't understand?

Another thought would be to have revolver div. scored as minor,& when all scored list it 8 shot / 6shot. I shoot a 627 & a 625. I would perfer to down load to 150.P.F. I love the way those fat little slugs just fall in. Others could have their .38s cut for moon clips, or just stick with speed loaders. When the score sheets were posted everyone could see who shot with an 8 or 6 shot. Make sense?

You already see in the scores whether you shot Major or minor, so in affect this already is the case. Problem is there just need to be more scores! This has been discussed heavily in this thread but I do recognize we are over 450 posts so no one really wants to go back and read it all to see what's already transpired.

Basically I feel keeping the 6 major guns is the only way to add the 8 minor, and I think we should try adding them. If you went to minor only and added 8 shot guns, that would be the end of 6 shooters being competitive. This way may keep both competitive, adding capacity as an advantage to the minor and better points on peripheral hits to the major.

I think what we need is a way to bring in more scores, not just find ways to split up the ones we already have. Anything that complicates the scoring procedure too much is never gonna fly.

The goal is parity between Major and Minor and growth in the division.

Major is what it is, Minor is what it is. Changing those numbers really will not help any of this.

[seanc]

I do fear that the results of the National will skew some views. I personally hope it is a shooting contest and not a track meet. The SS never has been. I'm sure that's gonna be perceived as me not liking big courses. That would be correct, if what you want is nothing but those. I have always liked the short courses, even when I was young and skinny and fast and was winning because of them. We used to take great pride in doing well at the nationals on the standard exercise stages. That has now gone the way of the dodo. Gonna warn you now, If I was a betting man, you are going to see a shooting match and not a track meet in Barry.

Only been doing this two years and have not made it to a nationals, but all past revolver nationals in recent times have been tied to the open nationals right?

It sounds like pasa is going to be very different....

[pskys2]

FWIW I'm sure the arguments both for and against change are not due to attempts to be gamey, but a genuine concern for the sport. I know several who are against it already have and compete with 627's. And some who are for it don't have them.

Rick Castelow won a late '80's Area 3 shooting minor, but it wasn't by choice. Other than that you just don't see it.

I haven't gotten deep into ICORE because I don't have an 8 shot, I will compete in it when it's available but I haven't been willing to start a club based on that.

Without a Major/Minor scoring system in USPSA IMHO it would devalue the sport if 6 shots were the norm (and still be non-7/8 shot friendly) and if 8 shots were allowed it would devolve into the same issue as ICORE, an 8 shot would be necessary.

With Major/Minor scoring it will be hit or miss depending on the COF. I doubt a stand alone Revo Nationals would ever see a distinct advantage given to an 8 shot, but then I never thought I'd see a stand alone Revo Nationals!!!! BUT I would not be at all surprised to see 8 shooters win, maybe even dominate, a stand alone Revo Nationals. But that's due to who is shooting, not what they're shooting.

At Level 1 & 2 you may well see advantages as long as an 8 shot/array maximum is followed.

And could that not help but discourage some? Would it transfer into decreased participation?

Is there a way to address that? Would more/less per array be the same as or better for all Divisions?

Those are questions that just can't be answered outside of a real world test.

Will this stand alone Revo Nationals result in renewed interest, especially if it looks to expand and goes to a Slot System as the SS has?

Should we give it time to see?

The one thing we can all seem to agree on is that Revo has not been thriving in USPSA. The stand alone Revo Nationals is a huge step, the next one in answer to this issue may well have to be a large Match that recognizes 8 shot minor Revo and is run under the USPSA Rule Book. It would have to be attended by a thorough cross section of competitors and equipment. And would not be set up to cater to Revo's.

Edited February 12, 2013 by pskys2

[TGO]

I do fear that the results of the National will skew some views. I personally hope it is a shooting contest and not a track meet. The SS never has been. I'm sure that's gonna be perceived as me not liking big courses. That would be correct, if what you want is nothing but those. I have always liked the short courses, even when I was young and skinny and fast and was winning because of them. We used to take great pride in doing well at the nationals on the standard exercise stages. That has now gone the way of the dodo. Gonna warn you now, If I was a betting man, you are going to see a shooting match and not a track meet in Barry.

Only been doing this two years and have not made it to a nationals, but all past revolver nationals in recent times have been tied to the open nationals right?

It sounds like pasa is going to be very different....

You are correct. This will be the first of what we hope will be A stand alone Revolver Nationals that grows to hundreds of shooters in the future.

[seanc]

I do fear that the results of the National will skew some views. I personally hope it is a shooting contest and not a track meet. The SS never has been. I'm sure that's gonna be perceived as me not liking big courses. That would be correct, if what you want is nothing but those. I have always liked the short courses, even when I was young and skinny and fast and was winning because of them. We used to take great pride in doing well at the nationals on the standard exercise stages. That has now gone the way of the dodo. Gonna warn you now, If I was a betting man, you are going to see a shooting match and not a track meet in Barry.

Only been doing this two years and have not made it to a nationals, but all past revolver nationals in recent times have been tied to the open nationals right?

It sounds like pasa is going to be very different....

You are correct. This will be the first of what we hope will be A stand alone Revolver Nationals that grows to hundreds of shooters in the future.

Indeed, and I think its great, but what I was really sort of zero'ing in on was the style of the stages are going to be very different than the revo shooters have been dealing with in recent history.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

I have never shot the SS Nats before, so all I have is hearsay, but from what I understand, the stagews will not be the big 32 rd field courses that most USPSA matches favor. That said, I don't see them being able to change them up much for the Revolver match. It seems likely they will be more technical than speed oriented. Just my .02 and thoughts.

See everyone there.

[wheelie]

This is my first post on this forum. This subject convinced me to register even though I've been telling myself that I don't need to spend any more time on the 'net.

As an introduction, I shot a bunch of pistol - bullseye, IPSC and silhouette - from the early 70s on into the early/mid 80s. I was a pretty mediocre bullseye shooter, but did well at the local IPSC matches - usually winning or at worst 2nd or 3rd. I also won multiple state championships in the silhouette game. I shot a 1911 at our "combat" matches and most of the time I was shooting against a large number of revolvers as that was the dominant service weapon for most police departments back then. By the mid 80s I drifted away from competitive pistol shooting for a good long while. I just came back this last fall shooting a 625. I've always liked revolvers.

The top ten at our matches would usually include 6-7 auto shooters and 3-4 revolver guys. I bring this up as an illustration of the potential for competitiveness that revolvers have when up against autos on a fairly level playing field. There might have been one guy shooting a Hi-Power but otherwise the max capacity was 8, with 7 shot reloads versus 6 shots for the revolvers. As you can imagine, our courses of fire looked nothing like what is found at a typical USPSA shoot today in terms of the number of rounds fired. Anyway, an auto shooter had some advantage, but the best revolver shooters could beat an equally skilled auto guy if the auto guy bobbled even just a bit. This kept things interesting for everyone. While we shot barefoot in the snow, uphill both ways.

The game today is dominated by high capacity guns and naturally the COFs have evolved to suit. Which is a good and natural thing mostly, but it might be that some shooters are left in the cold by the perceived need of most to blast large numbers of projectiles downrange. And in my opinion, that's where the revolver problem comes in - the revolver is de-facto eliminated from the sport as a viable tool for the game. If revolvers were written out of the rule book I don't think the vast majority of shooters would notice or care. The sport would continue.

If there is one thing that I would change to make this sport more attractive to low capacity gun users (1911s and revolvers) I'd require matches to include a certain number of 6 shot neutral COFs. Three stage match - one 6 neutral stage, five stage match - two 6 neutral stages, or something like that. Its important to give all competitors something to shoot at (pun intended). Leave 'em a little hope.

Now, I'll shoot anyway because as a half beaten down old guy I'm not winning a match no matter what rules get changed. But I'll be there shooting with the rules as they are now or with 8 shot revolvers allowed. And I don't care if they're major or minor. Really though, I'd like it a lot better if we had some stages every match that did not hand me a vast, unconquerable, built-in handicap. Simply requiring some 6 neutral stages in every match would be an easy way to make the sport more fun for more people.

[wheelie]

snipped......

Rick Castelow won a late '80's Area 3 shooting minor, but it wasn't by choice.

snipped a bunch more....

Way back when, he used to shoot here. I heard he got quite good after he moved away.

Very competitive guy, always gave a good run for the money.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

(SNIP)

The game today is dominated by high capacity guns and naturally the COFs have evolved to suit. Which is a good and natural thing mostly, but it might be that some shooters are left in the cold by the perceived need of most to blast large numbers of projectiles downrange. And in my opinion, that's where the revolver problem comes in - the revolver is de-facto eliminated from the sport as a viable tool for the game. If revolvers were written out of the rule book I don't think the vast majority of shooters would notice or care. The sport would continue.

(SNIP)

I will never forget my first major match. I was told on one stage "You really don't belong here with that" pointing to my revolver. The guy was not joking. Your statement about the sport evolving to Hi Cap is more true than many realize.

[joninwv]

So, where does this stand? It seems like the majority of people either favor trying this, or don't care either way. What's the next step?

[pskys2]

So, where does this stand? It seems like the majority of people either favor trying this, or don't care either way. What's the next step?

How about the 8 shot supporters who actually have them let it be known what matches they can attend. Then the Revo crowd could make an attempt to gather and compete. One where someone could get the scores of all of the 8 shot guys and have them tabulated with the 6 shot Revo's in a side bar. I say that due to the 8 shots would have to be in another Division as it stands now. A State/Sectional Match would be the 1st choice due to it being more representative of what COF's we would see in the future. At a club level we may be able to convince a few clubs to overlook the 8 shots and let them compete in Revo, without classifiers, the problem with that would be the wide variations in skill. A larger official match would show a more accurate representation of finishes if we could get together.

It may mean some of us might not win say Production with an 8 shot but it would give us some data to work with.

Mike, is Iowa going to hold a Sectional? There is the Great Plains, and I haven't heard of Kansas yet.

I don't have an 8 shot, but I'd do this if you are willing. If Iowa has a Sectional I'll try to get there and if you'd let me borrow your 8 Shot I'd shoot Production against you with your 6 shot (you'd be in Revo though), if Kansas holds one we would just reverse it. If Kansas doesn't we could meet at the Great Plains and switch. If we do I'll see if I can't bring a few extra Revo's up, might have to bribe them but might just be worth it.

What do you say?

Edited February 13, 2013 by pskys2

[TGO]

(SNIP)

The game today is dominated by high capacity guns and naturally the COFs have evolved to suit. Which is a good and natural thing mostly, but it might be that some shooters are left in the cold by the perceived need of most to blast large numbers of projectiles downrange. And in my opinion, that's where the revolver problem comes in - the revolver is de-facto eliminated from the sport as a viable tool for the game. If revolvers were written out of the rule book I don't think the vast majority of shooters would notice or care. The sport would continue.

(SNIP)

I will never forget my first major match. I was told on one stage "You really don't belong here with that" pointing to my revolver. The guy was not joking. Your statement about the sport evolving to Hi Cap is more true than many realize.

Not all of us are happy that it has become a high capacity play ground.

I miss the skill tests of the short round stages that are NOT classifiers, and the Standards. That was like winning a match all of it's own if you won the standards!

[PatJones]

If the rules stay the way things are, would there be a possibility of the 2014 revolver nationals allowing us to register for L10 and shoot out 8 shot revos? No Autos allowed.

-pat

[seanc]

If the rules stay the way things are, would there be a possibility of the 2014 revolver nationals allowing us to register for L10 and shoot out 8 shot revos? No Autos allowed.

-pat

Just bumping to open in a revolver only match would accomplish the same thing.

[PatJones]

If the rules stay the way things are, would there be a possibility of the 2014 revolver nationals allowing us to register for L10 and shoot out 8 shot revos? No Autos allowed.

-pat

Just bumping to open in a revolver only match would accomplish the same thing.

Good point, but I would be more likely to travel to shoot with my 8-shot if I wasn't shooting in a class alone. Otherwise it is no different than for a local mach.