Do you like the use of squads locally?

[jasmap]

We've been shooting a four stage match since 98 and up until last year we always divided the shooters into squads. The problem was that not every showed up at the same time. So after the primary group was divided equally and sent out to stages, you'd have more shooters show up and then you had to play personnel manager sending the right number of folks to each squad to keep them even. Invariably there was always one squad that was slower than the others and created backup at that stage.

Our attendence jumped about 30% last year and it was taking forever to get folks through so we went to open squadding and eliminated a lot of the issues. The change from squadding to open squadding worked for us but may not for others.

I think for a major match with 10 or more stages you have to squad. Of course, there you have a set group of shooters and start time so the other isssue that I described don't come into play. If you have a set sign up and start time, then squading works better. If you have open sign up, then open squadding works better.

Just my .02

Open sign up? How can that work at all? We have a general call for range help at 8:00 sign up opens about 9:15, we close sign up at about 9:45. Walk-through is about 9:55 and first shot is just after 10:00. We ask everyone to stay and tear their last sage down. Show up late? you get squadded where we can fit you. most people show up on time, why? because they know that is what is expected. Most people stay to help tear down. We run 70+ shooters in 7 squads. Our match is a 7 stage match. We try to balance squad sizes. Yes, occasionally we get the "Slow Squad" We address that in different ways. First, we look at why they were slow. Range failures and reshoots? new shooters? Or just plain ole slow?

Squads are the only way. I can't see ROing all morning and then trying to rush through the match. Sure, I'd like to have dedicated ROs, but at the local level,i just don't see it happening. Remember, it takes the same amount of time for one 7 man squad to shoot the match as it does for 7 squads of 7.

Jim

I have to kindly disagree with part of this. Squads are not the only way. At Rio Solado we have 4 monthly USPSA matches and Tues. night Steel every week. We have good solid turnouts every week for the USPSA and around 150 shooters weekly for Tues. Night Steel. They all flow pretty well. I can show up at 7am at a USPSA match, shoot, and be home by 9am.....all with open squadding. I do like squads but if it's done right then open squads work great.

[Jim Norman]

OK, Here is my question:

How do open squads work?

Details please. Match starts at:

Sign-up opens at:

Shooters start shooting at:

Last time a shooter can show up and shoot the entire match is:

Who are the ROs? and when do they get to shoot?

Do you build on Saturday and Shoot on Sunday and how do you manage that many people that can dedicate two whole days?

How do you handle walk-thoughs? Do I show up and wait for a break so I get 5 minutes to look over the stage? How often is the written stage brief read?

Do I put my name on a list at each stage and hope I get there when my name is called?

Do I wander around the range looking for a short list on a stage?

I am serious, I hear you all saying how great this is, but no details.

We set-up on Sunday morning starting about 8:00, we close sign up about 9:50, we make announcements about 10:00 and then shoot. We usually are tearing down by 3PM and eating Pizza by 4:30-5PM

We cannot shoot before 9:00 on our range and we cannot close the entire range for two days, we have 8 pits and a shotgun field. We run 60 plus shooters and have come near 90 this spring.

Inquiring minds really do want to know. If we can make things better, I for one am all in favor!

Jim

[Sestock]

If you set up a match in an hour, how good is the quality of the match? Doesn't seem like enough time to work out the bugs, shoot throughs, etc. Do you dumb down the match? We usually spend about an hour setting up each stage.

[Nik Habicht]

If you set up a match in an hour, how good is the quality of the match? Doesn't seem like enough time to work out the bugs, shoot throughs, etc. Do you dumb down the match? We usually spend about an hour setting up each stage.

We do too --- there are typically six experienced stage designers/build crew supervisors drawn from a pool of about a dozen, who design a stage and then build it, with varying levels of assistance, depending on the complexity of the stage. Old Bridge generally hits Sectional match quality; often even Area match quality; and rarely takes a level one exemption. Typically by 8 a.m. the stage builders and 4-5 helpers are on site; by 9 the helper pool has expanded to 20-25 individuals. When I say experienced stage designers ---- the newest in the bunch has only about three years of experience, the longest serving one is approaching 15 years. Some of us are designing and building 20 or so stages a year, between two clubs, the people who do it the least are probably still building six stages a year --- which means that they all retain a certain level of proficiency.

At CJ, pretty much the same thing happens, except that we're blessed to have dedicated two story trailers for each pit, that hold all of the walls, braces, target stands, sticks, fault line, steel, tools, spikes, etc. needed to put the stage on the ground. It makes set-up easier --- because virtually everything is delivered in one shot, and tear down takes about ten minutes per stage, if there's a screw gun available as the last squad finishes. They'll tear the stage down and load the props back on the trailer ---- which means that total breakdown time at CJ is about 45 minutes, if all squads finish more or less simultaneously.....

[ogiebb]

and these matches are top notch indeed

[Sestock]

Typical Match

Friday

After Work pull out the props, walls, targets stands etc. Stage the bays and maybe set up a few stages. Get beer

Saturday

Get to the range around 8:00 Coffee and Donuts, Set up stages, work out bugs, set activators, etc. Eat lunch. Staff Shoots in the afternoon.

Sunday

Regisration opens at 8:30AM

Shooting Starts at 9:00 (Any staff who dd not shoot on Saturday shoots through to get to the stages) We try to have two dedicated RO's per stage.

Regisration ends at 1:00 Anyone starting a second gun after lunch is asked to shoot the stages in a particular order, usually top to bottom.

As soon as the last shooter is done on a stage we usually start the teardown.

Last shoot is usually done at 2:30 and we are totally torn down by 3:30.

We have between 80-110 shootes per match. Ask anyone we use alot of props and never take a level 1 exemption.

[Jim Norman]

I suppose I am thick, but I still don't see the flow. What happens when I get to a stage? Do I get a reading of the WSB? Do I get 5 minutes to walk through? Do you wait till there are 10 people there and have them walk as a group? If so what is different than squads? I really want to know. I just can't get the picture in head.

Jim

[Sestock]

We usually will group shooters at the stage when they arrive. We give everyone a walkthrough and time to look at the stage. Flow doesn't seem to be a problem. If you hit a backup just skip over the stage to an open stage.

Come out and shoot a match and see for yourself.

[Jim Norman]

Well, I will be at A8 on Sunday. It is about a 6 hour trip each way me.

Grouping shooters at a stage, giving a brief, running the shooters, move to next stage, repeat. And this differs how from a squad?

Jim

[Sestock]

Well, I will be at A8 on Sunday. It is about a 6 hour trip each way me.

Grouping shooters at a stage, giving a brief, running the shooters, move to next stage, repeat. And this differs how from a squad?

Jim

You get alot more through a match when you squad at a stage and not at the beginning of a monthly match. It allows you to skip the tieups and move through a match quickly. If we are free on a stage and get a squad of 2-3 shooters, we can run them quiclkly through a stage, say 10-15 minutes. If I decide to shoot a second gun after lunch on Sunday, I usually can shoot the entire match in about 45 minutes.

IMHO squding on a stage allows the flexibility that squading at the beginning of the match does not.

It appears that we are on the same squad for the A8.

[Rotwang]

Well, I will be at A8 on Sunday. It is about a 6 hour trip each way me.

Grouping shooters at a stage, giving a brief, running the shooters, move to next stage, repeat. And this differs how from a squad?

Jim

The RO on stage 3 takes scoresheets from the next 7 shooters (3 pairs and 1 single) waiting - because the 7 after them want to shoot as a group.

Walkthrough and planning

They start shooting

After the single guy shoots he sneaks off because he's done with the match and doesn't want to paste anymore.

After the six get done shooting 4 of them go to stage 4 and get in line to shoot and 2 of them go to stage 2 because they've already shot stage 4.

And this goes on all day. A group (squad to you) lasts only as long as their time on a stage.

And you and Doug can debate this all day Sunday at area 8.

[mpeltier]

I have done both and like squads for a different reason than most of the replies. I like the hanging out and socializing but for me it goes farther. After a short time I feel more comfortable around the squad as they are no longer strangers. I can relax more and hence my shooting is better.

[shred]

Seems like open squadding pretty much needs stage ROs to work best. Is that true? Around here every place does embedded RO's in squads (which can have consistency issues, but most of the time it works out ok and nobody wants to spend all day RO-ing and not shoot)

[Sestock]

For open squading to work you probably do need to have dedicated RO's on a stage to ensure that the rules are be applied correctly and fairly throughout the match.

[Tom Mainus]

If this open squadding is so good, how come I have never seen it at a nat's or an area match? Not saying it is a bad thing because it obviously works for alot of clubs. Around here, upper midwest, I have never seen it.

Tom

[Sestock]

Why is everyone so adverse to anything different. My only advice is to go to a well run club that uses open squading for a monthly match and see for your self. Obviously if you are running a major match you need to use squads.

[scirocco38s]

We utilize squads at our local matches. It runs without problems and cleanup after the match is achieved quickly and efficiently. If a club is large enough to setup a match and then run with open staging(no squads) then that is great. The match I run, we setup part of the match friday afternoon and finish saturday morning by 10. Registration is between 10-11 and the walk thru and shooting starts after. Everyone has time to go and look at the stages and decide where they want to start, and as long as the squads dont get to large they shoot with who they wish.Our match has 6 stages and around 140 rounds with a classifier and we have either 5 or 6 squads. When you shoot your last stage you help teardown the stage and while everything is being put away the scores are finished and posted. Typically we are finished and off the range by 4pm. I am not opposed to the idea but I donnot have a large enough group of people that would be willing to ro all day long and not shoot the match, and there is no way we could get the ro's shot thru before it would be time for the general public to shoot. Just to much of a logistical nightmare here. Besides most of us want to squad so we can be with and talk to friends and compete with those that we have formed little rivialries with.

[lbritt]

We utilize squads at our local matches. Besides most of us want to squad so we can be with and talk to friends and compete with those that we have formed little rivialries with.

+1 He knoweth what he speaketh. He runs the best USPSA match in our State.

[Rotwang]

We utilize squads at our local matches. Besides most of us want to squad so we can be with and talk to friends and compete with those that we have formed little rivialries with.

OK -- bring a van load of your friends and rivals and then shoot together. No one is going to split you up.

[Jim Norman]

And while it may not have happened yet...

What happens if one stage of your match is say 50 Yard Standards and no one wants to shoot it, so all day long they ROs are sitting idle and then all 80 people finish the rest of their stages in what ever order and descend upon the Classifier at once?

Dedicated squadding, all move together and supposedly stay together and tape, set steel and brass. Open squadding we get to wander off from the group, shoot and scoot. I am not saying that it ca't work, obviously for you all it does, but I can't see it working unless you have two days to run a one day match and you have about 20 people that are willing to build the match on Saturday morning and shooti it in the afternoon then come back and RO all day on Sunday while competing against a group that didn't have toi build the match and maybe under extrememly differing weather conditions. It has been known to rain here like pouring water out of a boot on Saturday and be hazy hot ang humid on Sunday or any other contrary weather mix you can conjur up.

We accomodate nearly all squadding requests while keeping a balanced squad size and figuring about 3-1/2 minutes per stage, per shooter on the largest squad, plus 10 minutes per stage. With rare exception this works. We fire first shot about 1015 and are cleaning up around 3 or so. Everyone helps tear down the last stage they are shooting. (Well nearly everyone)

But like I said, If it works for you all, fine. The match that I have ever been to that ran this way truly sucked. We were always waiting, if 7-8 shooters got to a stage before us, we had to wait til lthey were done, but if there were no other open stages, we had to wait or risk losing our turn in line.

We seem to move squads along in fairly good rotations. Not too often we get a major log jam, and if it does happen, skipping around rarely seems to work since the squad that gets jumped now has to wait and the squad that jumped is now out of sync.

If we run small very fast stages, we will often try and place two in the same pit, shoot both, then move, it adds a stage to the match, but keeps the pit balance in line.

As someone else pointed out, if Open squaddding is the way to move large numbers of shooters fasted through a match, why are the Area Matches, Nationals, the AWARE and Summer Blast all squadded matches? Wouldn't the MDs use open squadding if it ran so much better than dedicated squadding?

If I ever get a chance to shoot at your club, i will promise you I will do so with an open mind as to how you run your match. I will admit, I can learn new tricks.

Jim

[vluc]

I shoot with Sestock and Rotwang, and have RO'd at their matches. it all flows well. I've not seen a problem with it in the last 6 years I have been shooting there.

To each their own....

[Jim Norman]

The club in question is East Huntington? If so, I sadley can not make it out since our match is the same day, 4th Sunday.

If a different club, then I am open to scheduling a trip. As I said, I am willing to learn.

I am thinking that it may be liekly that even though you don't actually squad people, that they tend to stay together in a group of a reasonable size? I mean, what if a couple inconsiderate people showed up and decided to simply shoot the match in as little range time as possible? Shoot stage 1, move on, shoot and as soon as done, move off to another stage. One has to assume that this isn't happening, and that groups of frends tend to self squad and move together in an orderly fashion, with a few straglers showing up during the day and afew others shooting through to reshoot.

I really am trying to see how this works since we have a fair turnout here and anything that works may be something that needs to be emulated.

Jim

Edited June 18, 2007 by Jim Norman

[racerba]

The way I see it, open squadding only works if you have dedicated ROs, a dedicated set-up and tear down staff, and the all important - two days. Around here, everything is done in one day. I'm sorry, I just don't see it happening at the clubs around here. From the folks that are arguing for the open squadding, I noticed that you dedicate a day to set up and shoot the ROs and another day to shoot other shooters. And you also argue that the steel matches are also run this way. Well, steel does not take long to paste or walk through - so that argument goes out the window. I also want to know if any of the open squadding clubs do it all in one day.

When we set up our monthly matches, we do NOT dumb down our stages. Half of them are Area match quality. Most can be Area match quality with very minor modifications.

Personally, I like squading because I get to shoot with different people and make new friends. It also gives me the opportunity to see how different people in different classes analyze a stage. If I'm always shooting with the same people all the time, that knowledge would never be expanded. I would only like open squading if I only want to show up shoot and leave as soon as possible without haveing to work.

[Noah Gladstone]

Who tapes targets and resets steel with open squading???

[Rotwang]

Who tapes targets and resets steel with open squading???

The group of people who are shooting at that moment. Call them a temporary squad if you like. Everything works the same while a group is shooting. They just get to pick the next stage they want to shoot and when they shoot it.

And people would jump on an empty stage, we don't have to worry about that.